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Re: Ehrenfest paradox

From Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Ehrenfest paradox
Date 2024-01-18 07:45 +0100
Message-ID <l0rvggFaq97U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <uo45bl$12mia$1@dont-email.me> <l0mtoiF3vrbU1@mid.individual.net> <uo5njc$1d4o0$1@dont-email.me> <l0pbs8Fj91bU1@mid.individual.net> <oJpWZsB3un7mZR0VEJn6XqTU1rM@jntp>

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Am 17.01.2024 um 20:02 schrieb Richard Hachel:
> Le 17/01/2024 à 07:54, Thomas Heger a écrit :
>> Am 16.01.2024 um 11:59 schrieb Python:
>>> Le 16/01/2024 à 09:44, Thomas Heger a écrit :
>>>> Am 15.01.2024 um 21:42 schrieb Volney:
>>>>> On 1/15/2024 2:12 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>> Am 15.01.2024 um 01:17 schrieb Python:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A major error of Einstein and SRT is the use of watches per se.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problem is, that light has finite velocity, even if light is
>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>> fast.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But this finite velocity of light would make remote watches look
>>>>>>>>> seemingly too late (by the time the signals of light take to
>>>>>>>>> travel
>>>>>>>>> from the watch to the observer).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now it would be a VERY (!!!) stupid idea to compensate this
>>>>>>>>> difference and adjust one of the clocks, that there is
>>>>>>>>> seemingly no
>>>>>>>>> deleay.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Instead the delay had to be measured and added to the time seen at
>>>>>>>>> the remote clock.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's exactly how Einstein's clock synchronization method
>>>>>>>> works. It
>>>>>>>> takes into account the time it takes for a signal to get from the
>>>>>>>> local clock to the remote clock and the time it takes for a
>>>>>>>> signal to
>>>>>>>> get from the remote clock to the local clock.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This has been shown to Thomas several times, his misunderstanding of
>>>>>>> paragraph I.1 of Einstein paper is abysmal. He's sticking on the
>>>>>>> idiotic claim that if delay is not mentioned then it means that
>>>>>>> delay
>>>>>>> is ignored... Ironically enough Hachel's claim is that delay
>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>> ignored... Cranks are insufferable...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is wrong, because Einstein didn't mention the delay with a
>>>>>> single
>>>>>> word anywhere in 'On the electrodynamics of moving bodies'!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> In the formula TA' = TA + 2AB/c, what do you think the AB/c term
>>>>> means?
>>>>> Where does the 2 come from?
>>
>> That equation has a different form in Einstein's text:
>>
>> 2AB/(t'_A - t_A )= c
>>
>> It's no big deal, of course, but quotes should be verbatim.
>>
>> The difference is: Einstein meant c and not the delay with this equation.
>>
>> You changed the order of terms and concluded, that Einstein meant the
>> delay.
>>
>> But there is no evidence at all, that Einstein even considered the
>> delay, because the word 'delay' or something equivalent is missing in
>> the entire text.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> I know, of course, what that equation means.
>>>>
>>>> A is a point in space and B is a point in space. The signal starts
>>>> from A in direction of B, gets reflected there and reaches A again.
>>>>
>>>> 2AB/c is incorrect, because a scalar-product of a position vector A
>>>> and a position vector B is not a distance.
>>>>
>>>> But distance from A to B was obviously meant.
>>>>
>>>> Is it to hard to require a line on top of AB from a professional
>>>> physicist?
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Besides of this:
>>>>
>>>> Einstein had to have written: this term 2AB/c means e.g. 'the delay of
>>>> the signal from A towards B, reflected there and reaching the origin
>>>> again' (or something equivalent).
>>>>
>>>> Just an equation (and a wrong one in this case) is not a statement.
>>>
>>> 1. The equation is NOT wrong (and your remark about notation AB is
>>
>>
>> Formal requirements are also valid for geniusses!
>>
>> so: Einstein had to make clear, what he meant with 2AB.
>>
>> It is obvious from the context, that twice the distance from A to B
>> was meant.
>>
>> Such distances have actually a common notation, (which I cannot easily
>> replicate in ASCII), but has a line on top of AB.
>>
>> If no such line is present, then AB must be interpreted as scalar
>> product of two position vectors A and B.
>>
>> Actually A and B denote points. But you cannot multiply points,
>> because points are physical entities, which cannot be multiplied (like
>> e.g. you cannot multiply an egg with an apople).
>>
>> So A and B must be interpreted as position vectors.
>>
>> Vectors can be multiplied, hence that would be a valid interpretation
>> of 2AB.
>>
>> But 2AB is not twice the distance from A to B.
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>> TH
>
> It is clear that the distance 2AB is worth twice AB.
>
> Let's stay reasonable.
>
> Einstein correctly measures Euclid's ametric.
>
> But where Einstein makes a dramatic error (I know that I am attacking a
> God, and that it is not nice) is when he believes that t(AB)=t(BA) for
> all observers of the frame . He is completely unaware, it seems, of the
> notion of spatial anisochrony like all physicists today.
One point is:
the time for travel from A to B is not t(AB)
You could, of course, reduce the notation of t_B - t_A to t(AB).
But I'm actually against such short hands.

second point

Einstein actually assumed t(AB)=t(BA), but didn't mention the requirements.

Which are:
Euclidean space
'isochrony'
stationary situation (neither A nor B shall move)

This is especially interesting, because Einstein actually dealt with 
movement in subsequent chapters and rejected absolute (Euclidean) space 
and isochrony.

TH

>
> Certainly, if I place myself at a point placed equidistant from A and B,
> for example on the perpendicular which passes through M in the middle of
> AB, I would have t(AB)=t(BA) like Eisntein says it.
>
> But not if I'm in A, and not if I'm in B.
>
> It is this difficulty that physicists today do not seem to understand,
> due to their abstract religious belief in a “plan of present time”.
>
> Although I have explained to them how the RR has worked for 40 years,
> and why many things are wrong with their geometry, they are absolutely
> incapable of questioning or even listening without seeking to humiliate
> or even threaten death.
>
> It's simply incredible and worthy of the greatest Hollywood films.
>
> R.H.

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Thread

Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-06 08:47 +0100
  Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-08 20:07 +0000
    Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-09 07:20 +0100
      Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-09 12:28 +0000
        Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-10 09:53 +0100
          Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-10 14:05 +0000
            Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-14 07:23 +0100
              Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-14 16:26 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Gus Bähr Schultheiß <igsu@ybonrurg.dd> - 2024-01-14 19:49 +0000
              Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-14 18:50 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-15 00:14 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-01-15 01:17 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-15 00:51 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-15 08:12 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-15 13:37 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-16 09:37 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-01-16 20:37 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-01-17 18:46 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-15 15:42 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-16 09:44 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-01-16 11:59 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2024-01-16 03:31 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-17 07:58 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Reid Chu Foong <cdiu@ceehueru.cn> - 2024-01-17 11:47 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-17 19:02 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2024-01-17 12:38 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-18 07:45 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-18 14:32 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-01-18 09:15 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-19 11:39 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Barbaro Bertrand Jacqueline <bndd@abrnarat.fr> - 2024-01-19 17:52 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-19 18:56 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Physfitfreak <Physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2024-01-19 14:45 -0600
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Raydel Walentowicz Dubanowski <naar@lrcllolo.pl> - 2024-01-20 12:34 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Physfitfreak <Physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2024-01-20 22:02 -0600
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Trejo Metrofanis Demarchis <omef@osjrirea.gr> - 2024-01-21 10:16 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Physfitfreak <Physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2024-01-19 14:42 -0600
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Leighton Accorso Passerini <oong@aacrncog.it> - 2024-01-19 22:56 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-20 10:39 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-21 00:31 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-21 08:00 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-21 14:05 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-21 13:58 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-22 07:28 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-22 12:28 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-22 19:31 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-22 20:51 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity contains a HUGE Loophole. Its Implications Can't  Be Ignored. PNA <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 02:58 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-23 11:58 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 09:07 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-23 19:11 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-23 23:25 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-01-23 22:11 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-24 00:55 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-22 14:08 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-23 09:47 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-23 11:21 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-23 11:23 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 05:33 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-23 19:26 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-18 00:06 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-18 07:52 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-19 11:37 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-21 08:02 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-21 13:51 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-22 07:34 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-22 12:40 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-01-23 09:53 +0100
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-23 11:51 -0500
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Archie Rusnak Dunajski <circ@rkuuarka.pl> - 2024-01-19 16:01 +0000
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-01-19 12:31 -0800
                Re: Ehrenfest paradox Levon Havroshin Babenkov <ahoo@enioheno.ru> - 2024-01-16 13:25 +0000
      Re: Ehrenfest paradox nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2024-01-09 15:07 +0100

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