Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #581075

Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz

From	whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz
Date	2022-03-26 20:27 -0500
Message-ID	<ja9srjFa4fbU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <ja41lnF6e2gU1@mid.individual.net> <t1ioob$17oh$1@gioia.aioe.org> <t1ism6$rc2$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ja4h9dF994lU1@mid.individual.net> <t1km3q$a1a$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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On 3/25/2022 10:11 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
> whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> wrote:
>> On 3/24/2022 5:51 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>> Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The point where your postings were predominantly helpful has passed some
>>>>> long time ago.
>>>>
>>>> How do you define “helpful”?
>>>> What does being helpful to someone like Ken Seto look like to you?
>>>>
>>>
>>> In fact, let’s get concrete. You earlier stated that an expanding universe
>>> is incompatible with being infinite. Given that physicists are on record
>>> having no problem with an expanding, infinite universe, how could I have
>>> been more helpful to you? I’m open for concrete feedback.
>>
>> As you should know, the models are complex enough that more description
>> is necessary to resolve this sort of conflict. You write that
>> "physicists are on record having no problem with an expanding, infinite
>> universe," but you omit the fact that it is not "all physicists" but
>> also that there are competing theories.
> 
> Of course. But if there were an inherent incompatibility between the
> universe expanding and the universe being infinite, then there WOULD BE NO
> competing model that featured an infinite, expanding universe. But there
> is. As well as other models, for sure.
> 
> To make it clearer for you, I am NOT claiming that an infinite, expanding
> universe is settled on as THE ONE accepted model. What I am explaining to
> you is that an infinite, expanding universe model is a completely viable
> one that cannot be rejected as untenable, as you said it was. You said that
> an expanding, infinite universe is a NONviable model because it’s
> inherently contradictory, when it is no such thing.


Where there are competing models there is an admission that "WE" do not
have an accurate model of the universe. Claiming what amounts to some
partially correct model(s) is idiotic when "WE" know that "WE" don't
know, but go right ahead and make such claims because thats what I did.



>> And you do this repeatedly
>> without discussing the fact that even competing theories have limits
>> regarding their relevance. You also omit the fact that we cannot be
>> certain that our universe is infinite or boundless and it is likely that
>> we can never ascertain the nature of the universe le4t alone its actual
>> size. Still you continue to insist that you have a complete command of
>> such facts.
>>
>> Next we have to determine, and we cannot, whether our universe can grow
>> internally without affecting the boundaries. Still if there are no
>> boundaries that means the universe is infinite in size, and if there is
>> any linearity involved, it cannot grow without affecting the "infinite"
>> nature of the universe because as you know "infinite" means there is no
>> possibility of a "larger infinite."
> 
> Well, I’d ask you to reconsider that statement. There are different orders
> of infinitude, and you should know that. The cardinality of real numbers is
> different than the cardinality of the natural numbers. The former is
> sometimes denoted aleph-one, where the cardinality of the latter is
> aleph-null. Might want to look up Cantor’s uncountability theorem for more
> background, you may find it fascinating.
> 
> But just to hone into a little closer to the case we were talking about,
> let’s just talk about the infinite set of integers. Those have a spacing of
> 1, naturally. Now consider the set of even integers. Those have the same
> cardinality as the set of integers, but the spacing is now 2. The
> cardinality if the infinity is the same, but if you witnessed landmarks
> that were at one time with spacing 1 and later the landmarks where with
> spacing 2, you would say that this universe of landmarks is expanding (the
> distance between the landmarks is increasing) even though the cardinality
> of the infinity is the unchanged.



Please acknowledge that you spent your working years as an academician,
because you behave and lecture like one. The only fault I find is that
as such you've become convinced that you have a corner on all that is
real and has value to humanity. I remind you of the popularity of a
geocentric universe. Several times I've said I'm done arguing with you
only to get sucked back into conversation. Just because you cannot see
or understand my viewpoint(s) in context doesn't make them wrong. You
apparently even go so far as to assign psuedo-quantative values to
infinities, another ideology that doesn't work for me. Carry on as you
must and will.




>> Some time back I was asked in a Usenet discussion whether or not black
>> holes had any semblance of infinity about them. My reply was that when a
>> black hole swallows another black hole, would that then result in 2X
>> Infinity? Is such a thing possible? Does infinity become just another
>> mathematical variable? Nope.
>>
>> It goes on from there but there's no use to attempting to discuss any of
>> this while you insist you have an understanding grasp of all of it.
>>
>>> (But to set an expectation, if the answer is to let people have and express
>>> opinions, whatever those may be, regardless of what physicists say, then
>>> I’m going to question the value of that. You?)
>>
>> "What physicists say" isn't a fixed set of facts. If you believe it is
>> then your problems are truly insurmountable.
> 
> Yes, I agree that what physicists say isn’t fixed. However, what they do
> not say presently is that an infinite universe is incompatible with an
> expanding universe, which is what you say. So I guess the question to you
> is, what is the rationale by which you would argue your position that you
> think physicists have all missed, but that you think they may land on
> eventually?
> 
> And if you have no rationale for your position and just throw it out for a
> conjecture, are you at all interested in why physicists would say that this
> conjecture is not well-considered?
> 
>>
>> But for just a short moment, let's assume you have the up-to-the-minute
>> handle on "what physicists say." Then look at what they said two
>> centuries ago, and what they will be saying two centuries from now.
>>
>> "What physicists say" is not, never has been, and never will be static.
>>
>> That's why I throw out only very basic conjectures, and usually spend my
>> time asking questions.
>>
>> And do try to remember that every time you lay claim to what physicists
>> say, your argument is an "appeal to authority" one of the documented
>> fallacies.
>>
> 
> 
>

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v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-23 16:14 -0700
  Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-23 23:48 +0000
    Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-23 17:04 -0700
      Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 10:44 +0000
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-03-24 09:55 -0500
          Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 16:21 +0000
            Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-03-24 15:12 -0500
              Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 21:44 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 22:51 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-03-24 19:39 -0500
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 15:11 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-03-26 20:27 -0500
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-27 12:37 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-03-29 10:38 -0500
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-29 17:52 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-03-29 14:47 -0500
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-29 19:53 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-03-29 15:18 -0500
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-29 20:57 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-03-29 18:50 -0500
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-30 14:29 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-03-29 22:15 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-27 14:33 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-03-24 18:53 -0500
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 13:57 +0000
  Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-23 18:46 -0700
    Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-23 23:08 -0700
      Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-23 23:29 -0700
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-23 23:48 -0700
          Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 00:22 -0700
            Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 00:39 -0700
              Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 06:34 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 06:45 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-24 14:27 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-24 14:27 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 09:40 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 16:54 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 10:04 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 19:31 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 12:36 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 19:46 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 20:07 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 13:26 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 21:44 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-24 22:01 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 16:04 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 17:18 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 17:26 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 17:54 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 17:59 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 18:16 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 15:11 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 09:12 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 15:11 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-25 09:51 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-25 09:55 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 17:03 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-25 10:09 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 17:19 +0000
                Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 10:39 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-25 10:46 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 17:52 +0000
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-25 10:59 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-25 12:01 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 12:00 -0700
                Village imbecile Pat Dolan inserts foot in mouth "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 10:38 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 12:03 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-25 12:46 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-24 18:28 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 18:46 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 10:01 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 10:30 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-24 17:37 +0000
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 11:01 -0700
                Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 11:24 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 11:56 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 12:04 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 19:34 +0000
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 19:43 +0000
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-24 22:16 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 13:26 +0000
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-25 11:16 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 14:58 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-26 00:52 +0000
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-25 21:58 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-27 23:56 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-28 13:09 +0000
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-29 11:48 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-29 19:25 +0000
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-30 11:07 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2022-03-30 12:02 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-30 12:46 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres thor stoneman <consequently7990662@gmail.com> - 2022-03-30 13:23 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-30 21:31 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-30 22:10 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-03-31 10:40 -0700
                Re: Cretin Pat Dolan perseveres Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 19:31 +0000
              Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-24 15:41 -0400
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 12:44 -0700
                Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 12:49 -0700
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-03-23 23:54 -0700
  Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-24 11:27 +0000
    Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2022-03-26 00:45 +0100
      Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-25 17:01 -0700
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-26 10:48 +0000
      Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-26 10:38 +0000
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-03-26 16:25 +0100
          Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-03-26 08:37 -0700
            Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-03-26 16:41 +0100
              Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-03-26 10:51 -0700
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2022-03-26 19:04 +0100
      Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-26 10:46 +0000
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-26 13:13 +0000
          Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-26 17:03 +0000
            Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-26 17:12 +0000
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2022-03-26 19:17 +0100
          Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-26 12:12 -0700
  Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-24 13:43 +0100
    Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-24 13:53 +0000
      Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-24 14:01 +0000
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-24 14:01 +0000
    Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 09:34 -0700
      Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2022-03-24 19:20 +0100
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 11:51 -0700
    Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-24 18:11 -0700
      Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2022-03-24 18:16 -0700
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Townes Olson <townesolson7@gmail.com> - 2022-03-24 18:25 -0700
        Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-24 18:46 -0700
  Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Takabe Matsumura <tamu@frdesn.jp> - 2022-03-24 19:44 +0000
  Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Takabe Matsumura <tamu@frdesn.jp> - 2022-03-24 20:00 +0000
  Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2022-03-25 11:21 +1100
  Re: v' = v in the Transforms Lorentz carl eto <carleto4157990662@gmail.com> - 2022-03-30 12:34 -0700

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