Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #580573

Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT'

From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT'
Date	2022-03-19 07:45 +0100
Message-ID	<j9lcftFbeg0U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(24 earlier) <K9NXJ.263633$zX2.7294@fx12.ams4> <j9g7p5Fbdk3U1@mid.individual.net> <t100kv$1h1e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <j9ikmaFpn9cU1@mid.individual.net> <t11bnf$6ar$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Am 18.03.2022 um 08:18 schrieb Michael Moroney:
> On 3/18/2022 1:46 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
>> Am 17.03.2022 um 20:02 schrieb Michael Moroney:
>>   >>> Let us have a large area with a constant vertical magnetic field B⃗.
>>>>
>>>> No!
>>>
>>> Why not?
>>>>
>>>> I have already written, that a magnet at the center of system K should
>>>> be assumed as finite material magnet at that spot.
>>>>
>>>> Such a real finite magnet would produce a inhomogenous field round his
>>>> exterior.
>>>
>>> The description did not involve the exterior. It involved one point in
>>> the interior. Surely a magnetic field can be constant vertical at a
>>> single point, correct?
>>
>> Sure, the description didn't contain the exterior of the magnetic
>> field, because it required to use a homogenous, one directional field,
>> which could be described by a single constant vector.
>
> And could this magnetic field be a constant field aligned with the z
> axis at this one point only, or not?

An infinite field size would allow a homogenous field in one direction.

But such an infinite size would not fit to the setting.

This set-up mentioned an electron flying along the x-axis.

Now inside a magnetic field, the flight cannot stick to the x-axis, 
because the electrons path would become curved away from that axis.

Therefore only a finite size of the field and the magnet would match the 
description.

That finite size would create an inhomogenous field.

>> Now I wrote, that this does not fit to the situation described,
>> because that was about an approaching electron, that passed by a
>> magnet at the zero spot of system K.
>
> Where the field is constant and aligned with the z axis, correct?

No.

A magnetic field is not constant outside the magnet, but still present.

>>
>> iaw: the equation does not fit to the experiment, because the
>> requirements for the equation are not possible to fulfill in the
>> experiment.
>
> It is not possible to have the magnetic field constant and aligned with
> the z axis at a single point?

No, because to use the word 'constant' would require at least two 
points, which have same field strength vectors.

>> But that is a second grader erorr, not even acceptable for freshmen in
>> physics.
>
> So you are claiming not only isn't it possible to have a magnetic field
> constant and aligned with a z axis (despite the z axis being
> chooseable), it is a second grader mistake to think that it is?

The mathematical modell should match the experiment.

To use a different modell in a description than what the experiment 
would allow is actually the error.

Even second graders could see, that you should not add, when you 
actually take things away.

>>>> the orientation of the axes x,y and z cannot be related to 'vertical',
>>>> because in SRT we have no Earth.
>>>
>>> Technically true but frequently in 3d Cartesian coordinates, "z" is
>>> called vertical, x and y horizontal. Scientists know what is meant.
>>
>> Sure, physicists know what 'vertical' means, but you apparently not.
>
> No, physicists know that someone could say "vertical" but really mean
> "aligned with the z axis".

???

I'm sorry, but what actually do you want to say????

'Vertical' is related to gravity and the surface of the Earth. And 
without an Earth (or other gravitating body) there is no need to call 
something vertical.

>>
>>> Who called the electron velocity horizontal?  Einstein?  If so,
>>> congratulations, you *finally* found a meaningless minor nit in the SR
>>> paper!  Then you'd have one down, 399+ more to go!
>>
>> Actually Einstein mentioned the x-axis of system K. Along that axis
>> the electron should fly with velocity v.
>
> Did he say this x axis was horizontal?  If so, I offer my
> congratulations!  1 niggling error down, 399+ to go!

No, I assume, that coordinate system can be rotated.

The orientation x-axis = horizontal is therefore a possible setting.

But that is my personal setting, because I'm allowed to rotate my 
coordinate system in the desired direction, not a requirement.

As I'm actually subject to gravity, I like to introduce my own preferred 
setting to models I use.

But SRT has other settings, which exclude gravity.

Therefore you cannot declare any orientation of the axis to be 'natural' 
and therefore obvious.

>>
>> That would require at least some amount of unaccelerated flight in a
>> streight line.
>
> Why do you say that?

Well, the description was, that the electron approaches along the x-axis.

This is a different setting than - say- 'the electron is at one point 
tangent to the x-axis'.

No 'to fly along' means at least three different points on the x-axis, 
which the electron passes through with velocity v.

 From that would follow the requirement, that the magnetic field should 
set in later.

>>
>> And that would exclude an infinite homogenous field.
>
> Why does the field have to be infinite?

Well, infinite is actually too large.

But it should be greater than the appraoch path of the electron, because 
otherwise the approaching electron would encounter an increasing 
magnetic field.

But that would not fit to the setting.

>>
>>>>
>>>>> We will assume that the electron all the time is in this area.
>>>>
>>>> No!!!
>>>>
>>>> If the electron approaches along the x-axes with constant velocity, it
>>>> cannot possibly start within the magnetic field, because otherwise the
>>>> velocity would not be constant.
>>>
>>> It can be treated constant for one point!
>>
>> That is not quite, what 'constant' means.
>
> So we don't even need it to be constant!  Now the only requirement is
> that it is aligned with the z axis!

Only problem: magnetic field lines are not always parallel.

>>
>>> Also, its speed (not velocity) will be constant as it would go round and
>>> round in a circle in a constant magnetic field.  Just take the tangent
>>> of the velocity at t=0 and call that the x axis.
>>>
>>> (or the field could be an electromagnet switched on at t=0)
>>
>> magnetic fields behave, as if the field itself had inertia.
>
> And...?
>>
>> Therefore you cannot switch on a magnetic field without any delay.
>
> Since we have eliminated the need for it to be constant over more than
> one point, we can discard any need to switch the magnetic field.

No, we have not 'eliminated the need for it to be constant' for the 
magnetic field called 'N' in Einstein's text, because N is only a single 
value and not a function of something.
...

TH

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Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-12 21:17 +0100
  Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Vaugn Rhea <var@bfrlsr.ni> - 2022-03-13 00:06 +0000
  Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-13 09:28 +0100
    Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-03-13 12:45 +0100
      Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-03-13 04:58 -0700
        Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-03-13 13:01 +0100
    Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-13 14:39 +0100
      Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-14 11:00 +0100
        Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-14 12:27 -0400
          Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-15 08:17 +0100
            Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-15 10:36 +0000
            Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-15 14:19 -0400
              Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Buddy Good <erv@ervn.ni> - 2022-03-15 19:14 +0000
              Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-22 09:11 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-22 17:31 -0400
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-23 09:36 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-25 00:31 -0400
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-25 08:16 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-26 15:43 -0400
        Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-14 21:00 +0100
          Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-17 08:54 +0100
            Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-17 19:59 +0100
            Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-17 15:02 -0400
              Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-18 06:46 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-18 03:18 -0400
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-19 07:45 +0100
        Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-03-15 11:39 +0200
          Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-16 07:54 +0100
            Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-16 03:16 -0400
              Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-16 21:09 +0100
            Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-03-16 10:55 +0200
              Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-16 21:15 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-03-17 13:48 +0200
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-18 08:16 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-03-18 13:05 +0200
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-19 07:50 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-03-19 13:05 +0200
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-20 08:47 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-03-20 13:04 +0200
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-21 08:27 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-03-21 11:13 +0200
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-21 20:58 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-03-22 19:32 +0200
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-22 17:09 -0400
      Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-03-15 11:26 +0100
        Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-15 14:36 +0100
          Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-15 14:22 -0400
          Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-03-15 22:14 +0100
    Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-14 08:58 +0100
      Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-14 19:15 +0100
        Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-15 08:03 +0100
          Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-15 10:39 +0100
            Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-03-15 17:19 +0100
              Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-03-15 12:24 -0700
              Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-16 08:02 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-16 10:16 +0000
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-16 21:19 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-16 21:03 +0000
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-17 07:51 +0100
            Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-16 08:26 +0100
              Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-16 10:28 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-16 21:38 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-03-16 21:03 +0000
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-17 08:07 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-17 14:59 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-18 06:24 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-03-18 03:25 -0400
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-19 08:05 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-03-19 00:20 -0700
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-19 09:25 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-19 15:35 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-19 15:28 +0000
                Cretin Richard Lengrand at work "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-03-19 10:13 -0700
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-20 08:41 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-19 14:04 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-19 15:14 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-19 21:31 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-20 22:38 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-20 22:23 +0000
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-21 08:56 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-21 11:52 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-03-21 04:43 -0700
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-21 21:26 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-22 22:40 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-23 09:55 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-23 11:19 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-24 08:54 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-24 15:00 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-25 08:25 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-03-25 15:15 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-03-25 07:39 -0700
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-26 10:51 +0100
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-26 12:30 -0700
                Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Takabe Matsumura <tamu@frdesn.jp> - 2022-03-24 17:35 +0000
    Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-03-14 12:18 +0000
      Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-15 08:24 +0100
      Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-03-15 17:17 +0100
        Re: New rewritten version of 'annotated version of SRT' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-03-22 09:36 +0100

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