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Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider

From J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig>
Newsgroups comp.sys.mac.system
Subject Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider
Date 2011-04-14 14:38 -0400
Organization none at all
Message-ID <io7evb019ri@news4.newsguy.com> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <jollyroger-0389BD.07552813042011@news.individual.net> <4da5fffb$0$32727$c3e8da3$40d4fd75@news.astraweb.com> <eZmdnY36M8jakTvQnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@giganews.com> <io6v4001jlb@news3.newsguy.com> <140420111303365653%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:03:36 -0400, nospam wrote
(in article <140420111303365653%nospam@nospam.invalid>):

> In article <io6v4001jlb@news3.newsguy.com>, J.J. O'Shea
> <try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:
> 
>>> As a latecomer to OS X, the lack of Rosetta is not much of an issue to 
>>> me - and probably of diminishing importance to most users.
>> 
>> That depends. Are they using any version of Adobe CS prior to 5? If so, 
>> they 
>> can't when going to Lion, as those versions need Rosetta. 
> 
> wrong. cs3 was the first intel native version, which came out in 2007,
> four years ago. 

And some items in CS3, and CS4, are PPC-only. Yes, the main apps are Intel or 
universal. No, the whole package is not. And, yes, you _will_ have problems 
using it as intended if you don't have Rosetta.

> 
>> Ditto MS Office 
>> 2004. Even the updaters for Office 2004 require Rosetta. (Updaters for 
>> Office 
>> 2008 don't. But the AUtomatic Updater that shipped with 2008 requires 
>> Rosetta, so that if you haven't updated to a version which replaces that, 
>> you're gonna have a problem.)
> 
> office 2004 is 7 years old!!

Still used, 'cause it's more compatible than Office 2008. (Or 2011, for that 
matter.) I, personally, have PowerPoint files, both PPT and PPTX, which 
PowerPoint 2004 will open, as I've installed the XML reader thingie from 
Microsoft's site... but which PowerPoint 2007 and 2010 say are corrupt. These 
files were generated with PowerPoint 2008. If I open them in PowerPoint 2004 
and resave them, _then_ PowerPoint 2007 and 2010 will read them. Note that 
PowerPoint 2011 will open those files, too... and if resaved, PowerPoint 2007 
and 2010 _still_ say they're corrupt. Hell, _Keynote_ will read those files, 
but PowerPoint on WIndows won't! I _have_ to have PowerPoint 2004 just to be 
able to move things to Windows! I've screamed at Microsoft about this, 
starting shortly after I first encountered it, roughly a month after getting 
Office 2008, in 2008... and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

There are also problems with Word and Excel files. Not nearly as serious as 
the simply can't read them problems with PowerPoint, but lots of stuff, 
mostly to do with fonts and page layouts. Word 2004 and Excel 2004 can and 
will deliver files to WIndows that the Windows office apps are happy with, if 
I run said files past them before moving to Windows. If I don't, I have to 
spend time fixing lots of little stuff. Again, I've complained to Microsoft, 
and again there has not been any sign of any fixes. I _know_ that I'm not the 
only person who has these problems, not if the comments on various forums, 
including Microsoft's own, are any guide.

The age of a system is not relevant; the utility of it is what is. The damn 
thing could be 17 years old, or 70 years old, but if it was required to get 
the job done, well, it's _required_. The fact that Office 2004 will not work 
in Lion is, all by itself, a _major_ reason for the company to not buy any 
machines running Lion. We _need_ it. Or we need Microsoft to fix things. And, 
no, we can't just move to something else, we need to be compatible with our 
clients... who use mostly Office 2003 and earlier. We'd _love_ to be able to 
jettison Office in its entirety, but that ain't about to happen out here in 
the real world.

> office 2008 is 3 years old.

So? It (mostly) works. Office 2011 doesn't do a damn thing that we need that 
Office 2008 doesn't already do... and it doesn't fix the problems that Office 
2008 has. There is absolutely no reason for us to buy it.

> upgrading 7
> year old software is not an unrealistic expectation when upgrading an
> operating system, and microsoft can release intel native updaters for
> it going forward.

They just kicked out an update yesterday. It uses a PPC-only installer.

> 
>> I, personally, just purchased a LaCie drive; 
>> the setup app which ships with the _brand-new_, 2TB, FireWire 800, drive 
>> requires Rosetta.
> 
> there's no need for any setup app to use any hard drive on a mac. plug
> it in. done.

I know that. John Public doesn't.

And, just so you know... that brand-new 2TB drive shipped with MBR partition 
tables, which means that if I had not dug out Disk Utility and repartitioned 
it GUID I would not be able to use it as a boot disk. The setup app _will_ 
handle things like that. Most members of the public would have no idea why 
they can't make their brand-new drive boot, or why they can't install a new 
OS onto it...

> 
>> Now, odds are that no-one posting here (with the possible 
>> exceptions of the Mad Microbe and the Linux Freak) actually require the 
>> hand-holding that the LaCie setup app provides... but there are a _lot_ of 
>> users who do. And who will _not_ be happy.
> 
> they're better off if it doesn't run. 

That depends on what they plan on doing with the drive, and on whether or not 
they know how to use Disk Utility.

> 
>> In addition, there is the hardware. There are _lots_ of older hardware out 
>> there (including hardware which primarily uses Windows, so 'switchers' 
>> might 
>> have such hardware) which _ship_ with drivers which require Rosetta at 
>> least 
>> to install, and in some cases to actually. There are even some _newer_ 
>> hardware which require Rosetta, and not just the LaCie drive I mentioned 
>> above. You can work around the LaCie setup app fairly easily, but at least 
>> two Epson and three HP MFDs which are _shipping today_ require Rosetta or 
>> you 
>> can't scan with them.
> 
> which ones?

HP PhotoSmart C4680, Officejet 8500, assorted Epson CX systems.

> i just bought an epson printer, plugged it in and it 'just
> worked.' there was no need to install anything, including scanning. 

You have Lion? Tell us more.

> 
> i bet that with whatever printers your thinking of, you can scan with
> image capture or vuescan. usually the bundled software isn't all that
> great. 

You can't 'cause they require TWAIN, and the version of TWAIN they ship with 
is PPC-only.

> 
>> Finally, there is the legacy stuff. At the office we have a considerable 
>> amount of older hardware which would cost tens, or even hundreds, of 
>> thousands of dollars to replace. (That is, tens to hundreds of thousands of 
>> dollars for _each item_, and we have multiple items. Hey, we have five 
>> imagesetters, none of which will work if if there's no Rosetta...) This is 
>> actually working hardware which has plenty of life in it... and which is no 
>> longer supported because the vendor which supplied them is either out of 
>> business or no longer supports Macs or both. There will _never_ be software 
>> updates for that equipment. Yes, it will have to be replaced sooner or 
>> later, 
>> if only when something breaks and we can't get the parts to fix/replace it. 
>> However, moving to Lion would break _all of it_ _all at once_. This means 
>> that we are _very_ unlikely to move to Lion until after we've replaced our 
>> legacy hardware... a process which is budget-driven. We've replaced some of 
>> the oldest equipment over the last few years, and some more is due to be 
>> replaced this year. But other items are scheduled for replacement over the 
>> next three-four years, not immediately.
>> 
>> If Apple kills Rosetta with Lion, we simply will not be able to purchase 
>> Macs 
>> which can't run Snow Leopard for at least three years.
> 
> most people are not in that situation.

That's nice. Lots of people who do pre-press are. There are a lot of Macs 
which were sold to do pre-press. If they can't do pre-press, then there's no 
reason for them to be used in the company.

> 
>> I am quite sure that we are not alone in this.
> 
> you're not alone, but you are definitely in the tiny minority. yes, it
> sucks for you and anyone else who relies on powerpc apps, but it won't
> adversely affect mac sales a whole lot, if at all.


I suspect that you may be incorrect on this point.



-- 
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

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Thread

OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-13 07:25 -0400
  Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-13 07:55 -0500
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-13 15:56 -0400
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-13 16:49 -0400
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-04-13 22:10 +0100
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-13 17:41 -0400
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-04-13 22:43 +0100
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-13 17:47 -0400
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Tom Stiller <tom_stiller@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-13 17:30 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-13 17:46 -0400
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-14 10:08 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-14 13:03 -0700
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-14 14:38 -0400
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-14 15:15 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2011-04-15 12:05 +1200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-14 20:48 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-14 21:51 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-15 08:15 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2011-04-16 00:23 +1200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-14 21:34 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-14 22:13 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-15 09:12 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-15 17:14 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-15 19:20 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-16 23:40 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-17 07:46 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-04-17 13:40 +0100
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-04-17 14:21 +0100
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2011-04-17 06:49 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-17 12:18 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 18:41 +0200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-18 12:37 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Leonard Blaisdell <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> - 2011-04-15 23:55 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-17 07:48 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-17 09:35 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-17 12:20 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-17 12:39 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-18 12:20 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-18 13:18 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-19 09:00 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-19 09:02 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 17:52 +0200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-16 23:38 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-17 07:49 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 09:59 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-17 12:28 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-18 10:06 +0200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 16:56 +0000
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-18 09:56 +0200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-18 07:58 -0500
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-18 12:32 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-18 12:35 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-19 12:41 +0200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-19 08:00 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-19 09:04 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2011-04-18 10:25 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2011-04-20 09:31 -0400
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider glawrie <gavin.lawrie@2gc.co.uk> - 2011-04-15 21:44 +0100
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-17 07:50 -0400
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-14 20:38 -0400
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-14 21:26 -0700
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2011-04-18 17:13 -0400
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-18 19:43 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-19 09:06 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-20 11:58 +0000
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2011-04-20 09:10 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2011-04-20 09:17 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-14 16:25 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-14 20:25 -0400
            OS X and the iToy ecosystem AES <siegman@stanford.edu> - 2011-04-15 07:03 -0700
              Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 09:58 -0500
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-15 16:37 -0400
              Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-15 08:12 -0700
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem AES <siegman@stanford.edu> - 2011-04-15 11:10 -0700
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-15 16:38 -0400
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-15 17:54 -0400
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-15 14:56 -0700
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-15 19:27 -0400
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-15 22:32 -0700
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-16 10:42 -0500
              Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> - 2011-04-15 11:37 -0400
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-15 12:51 -0400
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 17:10 +0200
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2011-04-17 11:29 -0500
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem sbt <dogbreath@chaseabone.com.invalid> - 2011-04-17 11:16 -0700
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2011-04-17 11:48 -0700
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-18 10:22 +0200
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2011-04-18 07:44 -0500
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-18 08:47 -0400
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Kiraly <ggrandish@gmail.com> - 2011-04-18 15:16 -0700
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-18 19:48 -0400
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2011-04-19 02:58 +0000
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-18 07:45 -0500
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Tom Stiller <tom_stiller@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-18 10:13 -0400
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-18 14:49 -0500
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem "John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net> - 2011-04-18 22:53 +0000
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-18 10:20 +0200
                Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-17 12:37 -0400
              Re: OS X and the iToy ecosystem Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2011-04-15 17:11 -0500
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-15 12:22 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:58 +0200
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider BreadWithSpam@fractious.net - 2011-04-13 21:04 -0400
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:49 +0200
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-17 12:29 -0400
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 10:52 +0000
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider dcohenspam@talktalk.net (Daniel Cohen) - 2011-04-14 20:17 +0100
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-14 08:31 -0500
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-14 21:43 -0400
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2011-04-18 12:37 -0400
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider billy@MIX.COM - 2011-04-13 20:04 +0000
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-14 08:29 -0500
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider billy@MIX.COM - 2011-04-16 04:52 +0000
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-16 01:08 -0400
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:42 +0200
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-16 10:45 -0500
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider billy@MIX.COM - 2011-04-20 01:41 +0000
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-20 07:54 -0500
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:39 +0200
  Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-13 15:45 -0400
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-13 16:22 -0400
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider AES <siegman@stanford.edu> - 2011-04-13 15:08 -0700
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-13 18:20 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 07:54 -0400
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 10:52 +0000
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider billy@MIX.COM - 2011-04-16 04:45 +0000
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2011-04-13 21:02 -0400
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-14 02:13 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-14 08:37 -0500
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-14 20:14 -0400
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 22:04 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-15 04:12 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-15 06:47 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) - 2011-04-16 01:23 +0000
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 20:34 -0500
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2011-04-15 11:49 +0100
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:26 +0200
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Bruce Esquibel <bje@ripco.com> - 2011-04-15 12:25 +0000
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 08:35 -0500
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-15 12:12 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-15 16:11 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 19:08 -0500
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-15 16:06 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-15 14:53 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-15 19:25 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 20:08 -0500
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-15 22:29 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:24 +0200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 19:13 -0500
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-15 21:09 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 20:31 -0500
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 20:32 -0500
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:18 +0200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2011-04-15 23:33 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 08:39 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 11:20 +0000
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 08:43 -0500
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-04-15 18:18 +0100
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) - 2011-04-16 01:36 +0000
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-04-16 17:04 +0100
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:13 +0200
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) - 2011-04-16 01:17 +0000
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:10 +0200
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 07:16 -0700
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-14 16:04 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 16:03 +0200
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-14 16:03 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-15 07:43 -0400
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 15:52 +0200
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 16:56 +0000
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-19 12:42 +0200
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 10:52 +0000
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-14 08:35 -0500
  Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-13 21:35 -0400
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2011-04-13 22:04 -0400
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-13 23:01 -0400
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-14 02:41 -0400
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2011-04-15 23:40 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-16 00:59 -0400
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2011-04-15 23:42 -0400
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 15:45 +0200
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 15:43 +0200
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Sander Tekelenburg <user@domain.invalid> - 2011-04-14 05:23 +0200
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 15:37 +0200
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-17 12:20 -0400
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 20:24 -0700
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2011-04-14 21:02 +1200
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 15:31 +0200
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2011-04-17 06:47 -0700
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 18:34 +0200
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 10:09 -0400
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-17 12:33 -0400
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2011-04-17 09:46 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 15:59 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 23:19 +0200
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2011-04-17 15:02 -0700
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-17 17:44 -0500
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-18 12:43 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider J.J. O'Shea <try.not.to@but.see.sig> - 2011-04-18 12:41 -0400
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 17:29 +0000
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 23:17 +0200
            Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 18:30 +0200
              Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 15:58 -0400
                Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 23:10 +0200
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-04-14 10:04 +0100
        Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2011-04-14 06:50 -0400
          Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2011-04-15 00:39 +1200
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2011-04-14 17:45 +0000
      Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 14:53 +0200
    Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2011-04-14 16:25 -0400
  Re: OS X Lion - breakdown of features, changes - appleinsider Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 14:45 +0200

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