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Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll

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On 2016-11-20 03:22:20 +0000, dorayme said:

>> All are dependent on contiually changing and growing technical
>> processes, it's just that some changes take a longer time to "mature"
>> or be wholly absorbed.  I can't think of any exception to this.
>> Writer's vocabulary grows with time, dance has taken on all kinds of
>> new approaches to movement and choreography in the past 40 years, music
>> has invented infinite numbers of new virtual instruments and so forth.
>> 
>> That doesn't make them inherently better or worse.
> 
> Certainly, there is no respected objective scale over which to measure
> a *general superiority* of digital over wet photography. But there is
> far too much that has gone to the head of those who have witnessed in
> wonderment the impressive technical advances of the digital age.

I've never tried to measure "general superiority", but digital is 
faster, more efficient and more predictable in the results, mostly 
because you don't need to predict results, you just hit the undo key. 
Digital can do vastly more in editing and effects than wet, but that 
doesn't add more "superiority" per se.  You still need to have someone 
making better decisions and that will never be a given.

When highly efficient studio recording equipment, not even digital, 
dropped to a 100th of the price of professional gear suddenly everybody 
and their dog was producing music in the 80's.  The volume certainly 
increased by a staggering amount.  Thus there was a lot more shit.  I 
note there are a plethora of overworked photography I see now; 
seemingly every landscape is of some totally unholy and surreal place 
that never existed in time and space, fortunately.  I get really irked 
by that.  But some people can consider that "superior" I suppose.

>>> I do not believe in this business of artists'
>>> "expressing" their "vision". It's a hoary and vague idea suggesting
>>> that an artist has some definite thing in his mind and he casts around
>>> to get it out (expresses) so it is a public object for all to behold.
>> 
>> On the other hands, many artists do just that.
> 
> It is a rare thing I would say for an artist to have a completely
> clear idea of some material object in his head, then cast about and
> plan a means to get it created. We have no way of knowing such a thing
> happening.

I think many if not most artists do have a relatively clear idea of 
intent a projection of what the intend to do. Then, when they read 
their own first draft or see their own first sketches they change their 
projections, frequently substantially, to accomodate the fish they 
actually pulled out of the stream.  It seems the most radical in motion 
pictures, you can do whatever you like, but it's only after editing the 
thing that you find out what you're going to get.  It's not that they 
are unrelated, but you have to change your expectations at numerous 
steps along the way. I can't imagine it being different.

> We have no way of testing what artists say and what
> happens. (Artists, and *especially photographers*, talk a lot of
> absolute crap. A lot of people do not realise that just because
> someone is good at doing A, it does not follow that they are good at
> talking about doing A).

Or vice versa.

>> I think it was
>> Stockhausen (maybe it was Varese) who stopped writing/making music
>> because where he wanted to go didn't exist.
> 
> How would he know where he wanted to go?

He said they sounds he heard "in his head" were not available via the 
traditional instruments of the time. Once manifest it was dubbed 
"musique concrete" and was a radical sea change for many.  Can you 
imagine someone conceiving cubism before it "existed", before it was 
painted?  Or do you see every episode of shift into cubism as a fully 
mature style as an accident, and the whole of the style the result of 
thousands of such unpredictable accidents?  In any case, both 
Stockhausen *and* Varese, as it turned out, were intent on producing a 
music that was conceptually more like abstract expessionism, which is 
kind of curious in that music is about as abstract as art can be.

>> As an artist I've always
>> thought that there were two basic approaches: One tried to make art
>> with the intent of pleasing others, to "speak for them" if you will, or
>> one makes art with the intent to express themselves. It's a rare artist
>> that *truly* doesn't care what others think, whose only intent it is to
>> express themselves.  Similarly, an artist who hasn't the slightest
>> interest in what they produce as long as others are willing to
>> pay/appreciate it, also pretty rare.
>> 
> 
> Mmm...? Making something to please others? Pornography fits that
> description. Making a film of someone jacking off will please some I
> guess. This please business is nowhere near anything useful here. With
> respect, gtr!

I didn't shift to porn, you did!  Commercial art, with the intent to 
appeal to as many as possible is exemplified wherever there are humans 
and the vast majority isn't porn.

> You repeat and make out you understand and approve of the idea that
> there is a fair bit of this 'expressing" oneself in art. I beg to
> disagree. It is a hoary idea and you should be suspicious of it,
> certainly do not take the unreliable grasping emotive vague words of
> artists and photographers on all this.

One does not epress themselves in art?  That's certainly a conversation 
stopper. I can't even conceive of that.  What, are we all automatons 
building regular little machines? Did impressionism and expressionism 
in all the arts never happen?  Or did the mean drafting and

>> Some of the nut-busting seems to be about whether having proceeded
>> through a period of wet photograpy was critical to being where we are
>> now;
> 
> Where are we now? I better not go on, I will sound too cynical for
> you!

That may well be.  We are where in a world where it is becoming more 
and more difficult to buy film or get it developed, that's for sure.

> I will tell you though, in many ways I think digital photography is a
> different discipline or art from wet even for those who practice it in
> a most serious way - not family and holiday snaps, but say, serious
> gallery work, on and off line. I do not say it is better or worse. And
> it has some fabulous possibilities not previously practical.

No argument there.  Similarly chamber music with acoustic instruments 
is radically different from a rock band not just in the mechnisms used 
to produce the music, but in the limitation so the instruments used to 
produce it--and both have significant, though very different 
limitations.

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Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2016-11-14 09:41 +0000
  Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-15 13:19 -0500
    Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-16 07:41 +1100
      Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-15 15:50 -0500
        Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-17 19:58 +1100
          Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-17 09:32 -0500
            Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2016-11-17 20:34 +0000
              Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2016-11-18 13:06 +1300
              Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2016-11-17 23:05 -0500
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2016-11-17 23:08 -0500
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2016-11-18 07:05 +0000
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2016-11-17 23:39 -0800
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-19 10:46 +1100
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2016-11-18 16:30 -0800
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-19 13:11 +1100
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2016-11-19 17:42 -0800
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-20 14:22 +1100
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2016-11-20 09:01 -0800
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-21 07:30 +1100
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2016-11-20 13:33 -0800
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-21 09:52 +1100
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> - 2016-11-20 19:22 -0800
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-21 16:18 +1100
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2016-11-19 10:30 +0000
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2016-11-19 10:13 +1300
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-19 10:39 +1100
              Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-18 10:23 -0500
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-19 10:48 +1100
              Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-19 10:02 +1100
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2016-11-19 21:20 +0000
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-19 16:52 -0500
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2016-11-20 02:55 +0000
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-19 21:59 -0500
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2016-11-20 03:26 +0000
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-20 14:37 +1100
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-20 09:31 +1100
            Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-19 09:40 +1100
              Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-18 18:37 -0500
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-19 11:03 +1100
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net> - 2016-11-19 07:46 -0800
                Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-20 06:55 +1100
          Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2016-11-17 16:42 +0000
            Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2016-11-19 09:48 +1100
            Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2016-11-19 09:45 -0500
    Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2016-11-15 13:49 -0800
    Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2016-11-16 10:00 +0000
      Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-16 11:18 -0500
        Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2016-11-17 20:32 +0000
          Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-18 10:23 -0500
            Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2016-11-18 18:08 +0000
            Re: I'd Like to See a MacBook Pro Poll Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2016-11-19 10:31 +0000

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