Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc > #2199
| Subject | Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.sys.mac.system, comp.sys.mac.portables, comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc |
| References | (19 earlier) <OqXrH.528254$7vd.484790@fx35.iad> <Nw1sH.236346$ie1.139071@fx26.iad> <u5dsH.664776$%p.315055@fx33.iad> <miwsH.528513$RY8.414225@fx48.iad> <m0AsH.528525$RY8.513037@fx48.iad> |
| From | JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> |
| Message-ID | <ShEsH.225224$BL.86100@fx16.iad> (permalink) |
| Date | 2020-11-16 18:53 -0500 |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
On 2020-11-16 14:01, Alan Browne wrote:
> And, as mentioned, the ARM-64 is pretty CISCy as are most formerly RISC
> processors have evolved over time.
So can you please describe the various technique Apple has imp;lemeted
its its cores with regards to instruction pre-fetching, pipelining, out
of order excecution, prediuctive branching? From your discussion, you
appear to be fully comfortable with Apple's ARM cores so it would be a
great contribution if you could describe them to help others who need to
write efficient assembler.
> Out of order ops are equally implementable by writing assembler.
And then try to get someone else to understand your source code.
The reason I brough up VAX to Alpha and Alpha to Inanium is excatctly
because the chips evolved into a situation where normal assembler
writing will often not only not take advantage of run-time optimizations
but can also slow things down if you do operaions in an order that
forces pre-feteched ionstructions to be reset and start from scartch again.
> No it is not old thinking. You resort to assembler because the compiler
> is not doing as well as hand written machine code.
C, Fortran and COBOL , on older plaforms gnerated very efficient code.
On newwer platforms, tend to generate more efficient code due to
optimizations by the compiler.
C++ has a few more layers of abastractions, but can also generate very
efficient code, as with Apple's SWIFT. This is because the optimizatiosn
done by the compiler and then by LLVM make maximum use of the chip, and
the old concept of only assembly being fast is gone.
> And (again) most drivers are actually in HOL. Not assembler. Because
> of all sorts of needs from portability to maintenance
hardware drivers still need some assembler at lowest level to interface
with the hardware. Higher level drivers can be in C or other.
> You have no clue at all how Rosetta 2 works.
Again, consider that Rosetta 2 links the translated image against
special system frameworks that accept Intel format calls and transform
them to ARM format calls and then call the desired system routine.
And within the translated image, the code still calls internal routines
with Intel format/technique for argument passing.
This says a LOT about what Rosetta does and doesn't do. And there cabn't
be logic changes because the translator needs to maintain the
environment expected by the rest of the code.
> Do you believe that Apple
> are working at your coarse level of unpracticed understanding or that
> perhaps they are making R2 really shine with a sophisticated conversion
> process - one that takes place at install time especially?
Rosetta 2 is a translator, not a recompiler. Yes, the translated image
runs natively as ARM code, but it maintains its Intel heritage for a lot
of stuff such as arguyment passing mechanisms.
> For most implementations the translation will be a one time (on install
> of the x86 code) event. That one time event allows for all sorts of
> cleverness.
Contrary to previous ports, there insn't much abandonware left on OS-X.
If you didn't compiled 64 bits, you're no longer present/supported on
platform. So of the software that is available now, chances are it will
all be recompiledc ro ARM shortly. There isn't much of a point to make a
translator that does AI on the binary code to understand what it tyries
to do and optimize it.
Consider also that OS-X is ARM native form day 1, comtrary to the 68K to
Power PC which kept many parts as 68K until finally converted. So there
is less of a need to make a super duper efficient translator.
> You don't seem to understand that the CPU stack is not the stack used in
> the abstraction of a thing like an RPN calculator.
The whole point of a CPU providing a stack is so it could be used. You
have no right to state that it is only used for argument passing.
> Again: implementation of RPN stack abstraction ≠ CPU stack.
Are you saying it is illegal to use the stack for such an app?
On which CPU/OS is it illegal ?
> The point of an align pragma is so the next declared variable begins on
> the align divisor address. Properly accessing that variable results in
> a correct store or load.
You missed the point. Your variable may be aligned, but if the variable
is a single byte, the available assembly operation might force load 8
bytes into the register. So you then have to play with shifts within the
register to get the one byte places in the leest significant bits of the
register. (and do the shisfst with awareness of sign implementation on
that platform).
On a compiler, this is done for you in the most efficient way and the
compiler may decide dto put many 1 byte variables together so one load
from memory allows access to any of the variable from register.
> Every processor I've worked on does the shifting automatically (at the
> cost of a few machine cycles) if the word is not aligned.
For Itanic, it was an acual fault for the early versions. Heavy
performance penalty. The fault code would then pickup the 8 bytes and
extract what you needed from it for you. Whe Intel designed the chip,
they though compilers would take care of this. But it turns out not all
computing is scientific, and the business applications on those large
machines tended to treat charactersas strings and not numbers whene
processing a client record. So even COBOL ended up generating terrible
performance.
> Not in Adobe's case it would appear. They are doing some core
> functionality in assembler in order to have higher performance.
I doubt there is much in Assembler code. Likely very small routines that
make use of 1 opcode to encode/decode/copmpress/decompress a block, with
a high level routine doing the same work sitting on the siote for when
app is execured on a CPU that doesn't have that extra instruction.
> I have intimate knowledge of real time programming in various assembler
> languages, though not ARM. Looking at the ARM architecture there is
> nothing esp. daunting, and of course going forward from an architecture
> with 16 general purpose x 64b registers to one with 29 x 64b GP
> registers doesn't make anything harder - quite the opposite.
It is how it is implemented that matters. The stuff one doesn't see such
as instruction pre-fecching/decoding, pipelining, etc.
> Conclusion: you don't know much about machine level programming. Your
> silly RPN example is clear evidence of that (can't discern between the
> CPU stack and an RPN program stack abstraction).
Not surprising coming from you or your ilk such as nospam and lewis.
> The M1 is blazing fast for a variety of reasons from the CPU design
> (always getting better) to an optimized use of memory ("unified")
Oh come on now. "unified memnory" is just marketing bullshit. Apple
hasn' conformed memory type or speed on the M1, it is only speculation
that it is the same as on the Intel model (the Lo power DDR4).
Real benchmarks should start popping up soon. Ones that last a few
minutes, enough to test thermal performance.
> And I expect that the M2 and on will quite fantastic with even higher
> core counts appropriate to iMacs, higher end minis and laptops and "pro"
> machines.
Only time will tell how Apple will scale its Axx chips to the Mac line
and what will become of the Mac Pro. And only time will tell whether the
Apple Macs will be narrowed to specific uses for which benchmarks are
produced or whether they will remain , like the x86, for generic computing.
aka: chip perfect for viewing H.265 videos, but sucks at calculating pi
to 5 billion decimals.
Back to comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2020-11-11 14:46 -0600
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-11-11 12:57 -0800
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2020-11-11 16:40 -0600
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Tim <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2020-11-11 22:45 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2020-11-11 20:00 -0600
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-11 21:06 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-11-12 15:09 +1300
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-11 17:46 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-11-11 15:27 -0800
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-11-12 12:50 +1300
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-11 20:07 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-11 20:15 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-12 13:34 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-12 14:20 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-13 10:15 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-13 11:43 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-13 12:47 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-13 13:22 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-13 15:40 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-12 14:00 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-12 14:21 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-13 02:13 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-13 06:30 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-13 15:43 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2020-11-13 16:42 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-13 13:16 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2020-11-13 19:19 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-13 20:18 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-13 16:58 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 00:51 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-13 11:45 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-13 11:27 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-12 14:56 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-12 14:54 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-11 22:22 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-11-11 14:39 -0800
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-12 14:48 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2020-11-11 16:40 -0600
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-11 17:46 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Tim <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2020-11-11 22:46 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-11-12 12:39 +1300
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2020-11-11 20:01 -0600
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-12 14:51 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-12 14:12 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-12 14:21 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-13 11:56 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-13 20:20 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-13 15:47 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 00:54 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-13 20:06 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 09:47 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-14 05:21 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-14 08:29 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-14 12:21 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-14 13:04 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-14 13:40 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-14 12:40 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-14 13:04 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-14 13:26 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-14 14:48 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-14 15:08 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-14 15:50 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-14 22:46 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-15 11:56 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-16 09:47 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-16 10:43 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-16 17:25 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-16 15:48 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-16 14:01 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-16 18:53 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-16 21:33 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-17 20:04 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 23:28 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 18:40 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-14 13:47 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-14 14:52 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-14 15:08 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 23:26 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-14 22:52 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-15 10:15 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2020-11-16 09:05 +1300
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-15 08:09 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-17 14:42 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 14:04 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2020-11-14 15:41 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2020-11-14 12:46 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2020-11-14 18:00 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-14 09:30 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 16:51 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-14 12:12 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 18:34 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-14 14:20 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-14 23:20 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2020-11-14 19:39 -0500
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-13 10:12 +0000
Re: Who is going to buy the first Arm (M1) MacBooks? Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2020-11-12 14:50 +0000
csiph-web