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advice for an acquaintance

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  advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-15 14:47 +0000
    Re: advice for an acquaintance Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2011-04-15 10:00 -0500
    Re: advice for an acquaintance Steve Fenwick <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-15 08:34 -0700
    Re: advice for an acquaintance Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> - 2011-04-15 12:16 -0400
      Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam@see.signature (Richard Maine) - 2011-04-15 09:42 -0700
        Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-15 13:05 -0700
          Re: advice for an acquaintance Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-04-15 18:30 +0100
            Re: advice for an acquaintance dcohenspam@talktalk.net (Daniel Cohen) - 2011-04-16 17:42 +0100
          Re: advice for an acquaintance erilar <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> - 2011-04-15 12:38 -0500
            Re: advice for an acquaintance Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> - 2011-04-16 13:00 -0400
              Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-16 18:45 +0000
                Re: advice for an acquaintance Jim Glidewell <jim_glidewell@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-16 21:15 +0000
          Re: advice for an acquaintance BreadWithSpam@fractious.net - 2011-04-15 15:31 -0400
            Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-15 16:34 -0700
              Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-15 21:40 +0000
                Re: advice for an acquaintance Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2011-04-16 00:35 -0500
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-04-16 16:50 +1000
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2011-04-16 10:59 -0500
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-16 12:45 +0000
                Re: advice for an acquaintance jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2011-04-17 00:26 +1200
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-16 13:04 +0000
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2011-04-17 03:00 +1200
                      Re: advice for an acquaintance erilar <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> - 2011-04-16 10:55 -0500
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 20:25 +0000
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-04-17 07:51 +1000
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2011-04-18 07:50 +1200
                      Re: advice for an acquaintance dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-04-18 09:41 +1000
                      Re: advice for an acquaintance Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-18 00:35 +0000
          Re: advice for an acquaintance "John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net> - 2011-04-15 22:07 +0000
            Re: advice for an acquaintance BreadWithSpam@fractious.net - 2011-04-15 19:23 -0400
              Re: advice for an acquaintance Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2011-04-16 00:40 -0500
              Re: advice for an acquaintance "John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net> - 2011-04-17 02:54 +0000
            Re: advice for an acquaintance pf@porkain'tkosher.oink (Paul Fuchs) - 2011-04-15 22:53 -0700
            Re: advice for an acquaintance Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 10:23 +0000
              Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-16 12:45 +0000
                Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam@see.signature (Richard Maine) - 2011-04-16 08:40 -0700
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2011-04-16 11:10 -0500
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam@see.signature (Richard Maine) - 2011-04-16 10:21 -0700
                      Re: advice for an acquaintance Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2011-04-16 17:19 -0400
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2011-04-16 17:16 -0400
          Re: advice for an acquaintance Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-16 23:00 -0400
            Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-18 12:23 -0700
              Re: advice for an acquaintance Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-19 13:48 +0200
                Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-19 11:00 -0700
                Re: advice for an acquaintance Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> - 2011-04-19 12:22 -0400
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-20 07:59 +0200
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-20 11:33 +0000
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-20 14:35 +0200
              Re: advice for an acquaintance Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-19 21:58 -0400
                Re: advice for an acquaintance Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-20 08:31 +0200
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-20 16:04 +0000
      Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-15 12:57 -0700
        Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam@see.signature (Richard Maine) - 2011-04-15 10:15 -0700
          Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-15 13:41 -0700
          Re: advice for an acquaintance Suze <replytome@thenewsgroup.com> - 2011-04-15 20:01 -0500
          Re: advice for an acquaintance Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 20:43 +0200
        Re: advice for an acquaintance Tom Stiller <tom_stiller@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-15 13:59 -0400
      Re: advice for an acquaintance dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-04-16 10:40 +1000
        Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-16 01:46 +0000
          Re: advice for an acquaintance dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-04-16 13:21 +1000
            Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-16 12:45 +0000
        Re: advice for an acquaintance Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 10:23 +0000
          Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-16 12:45 +0000
          Re: advice for an acquaintance Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-16 23:19 -0400
            Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-17 14:18 +0000
            Re: advice for an acquaintance Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> - 2011-04-17 12:31 -0400
              Re: advice for an acquaintance Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2011-04-17 12:55 -0500
                Re: advice for an acquaintance Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> - 2011-04-18 11:51 -0400
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2011-04-18 11:38 -0500
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> - 2011-04-19 12:18 -0400
                      Re: advice for an acquaintance Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-19 22:05 -0400
                        Re: advice for an acquaintance Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-20 11:38 +0000
                          Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-20 16:04 +0000
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-04-19 07:30 +1000
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> - 2011-04-19 12:19 -0400
                      Re: advice for an acquaintance dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-04-20 08:03 +1000
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-19 22:02 -0400
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-20 08:27 +0200
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-20 11:33 +0000
              Re: advice for an acquaintance Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-17 23:22 -0400
                Re: advice for an acquaintance Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-18 10:47 +0200
                Re: advice for an acquaintance Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-04-18 07:23 -0400
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-18 13:10 +0000
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance BreadWithSpam@fractious.net - 2011-04-18 11:13 -0400
                      Re: advice for an acquaintance Steve Fenwick <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-18 22:22 -0700
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2011-04-21 18:42 +1200
                  Re: advice for an acquaintance John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net> - 2011-04-18 09:37 -0700
                    Re: advice for an acquaintance Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-04-19 22:10 -0400
      Re: advice for an acquaintance Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 10:15 +0000
    Re: advice for an acquaintance Suze <replytome@thenewsgroup.com> - 2011-04-15 11:36 -0500
    Re: advice for an acquaintance nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-15 13:08 -0700
    Re: advice for an acquaintance "John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net> - 2011-04-15 21:45 +0000
      Re: advice for an acquaintance Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-17 19:18 +0200
        Re: advice for an acquaintance Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-04-17 18:59 +0000
          Re: advice for an acquaintance "John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net> - 2011-04-20 20:50 +0000

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#1290 — advice for an acquaintance

Long intro, but only needs a short answer 8-)

I know there are some multi-platform people here so I thought I'd ask you. 
She is about as computer-illiterate as you can imagine, but she says her
"bank", which sounds like something with brokerage, has informed her that
in the future she MUST do everything on line. She is so security-conscious
that she won't even use a credit card online and is certain that the
computers at the library are unsafe for anything beyond simple e-mail,
which she only began to use after I helped her open a Yahoo account some
time ago.

She is thinking about getting a computer of her own, but her finances are
quite limited, so if she does, it would be a cheap little netbook, and
she'd need a printer as well.  I've been googling around for ideas, and
hope to at least convince her to take the long drive to the nearest Best
Buy, at least.  (I wouldn't advise my worst enemy to depend on WalMart!)
That seems to offer some decent deals, at least, since she won't consider
shopping on line.

But someone she met at the library showed her a thumb drive(I presume, from
her description) and told her she could carry her info around on it.  I
have no experience with them, so I don't know the limitations.  Could she
carry everything sensitive around on one and leave no traces thereof in a
computer she used it on? It seems to me she'd need a computer to put info
ON the thing, as well as to use it.  I really can't see her dealing with
any kind of protection program.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad

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#1292

In article <io9lq3$32g$1@dont-email.me>,
 Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> Long intro, but only needs a short answer 8-)
> 
> I know there are some multi-platform people here so I thought I'd ask you. 
> She is about as computer-illiterate as you can imagine, but she says her
> "bank", which sounds like something with brokerage, has informed her that
> in the future she MUST do everything on line. She is so security-conscious
> that she won't even use a credit card online and is certain that the
> computers at the library are unsafe for anything beyond simple e-mail,
> which she only began to use after I helped her open a Yahoo account some
> time ago.
> 
> She is thinking about getting a computer of her own, but her finances are
> quite limited, so if she does, it would be a cheap little netbook, and
> she'd need a printer as well.  I've been googling around for ideas, and
> hope to at least convince her to take the long drive to the nearest Best
> Buy, at least.  (I wouldn't advise my worst enemy to depend on WalMart!)
> That seems to offer some decent deals, at least, since she won't consider
> shopping on line.
> 
> But someone she met at the library showed her a thumb drive(I presume, from
> her description) and told her she could carry her info around on it.  I
> have no experience with them, so I don't know the limitations.  Could she
> carry everything sensitive around on one and leave no traces thereof in a
> computer she used it on? It seems to me she'd need a computer to put info
> ON the thing, as well as to use it.  I really can't see her dealing with
> any kind of protection program.

I kept reading thinking eventually you would ask a Mac application 
question. Alas, not.

-- 
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than email to me.
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.

JR

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#1294

In article <io9lq3$32g$1@dont-email.me>,
 Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> Long intro, but only needs a short answer 8-)
> 
> I know there are some multi-platform people here so I thought I'd ask you. 
> She is about as computer-illiterate as you can imagine, but she says her
> "bank", which sounds like something with brokerage, has informed her that
> in the future she MUST do everything on line. She is so security-conscious
> that she won't even use a credit card online and is certain that the
> computers at the library are unsafe for anything beyond simple e-mail,
> which she only began to use after I helped her open a Yahoo account some
> time ago.
> 
> She is thinking about getting a computer of her own, but her finances are
> quite limited, so if she does, it would be a cheap little netbook, and
> she'd need a printer as well.  I've been googling around for ideas, and
> hope to at least convince her to take the long drive to the nearest Best
> Buy, at least.  (I wouldn't advise my worst enemy to depend on WalMart!)
> That seems to offer some decent deals, at least, since she won't consider
> shopping on line.
> 
> But someone she met at the library showed her a thumb drive(I presume, from
> her description) and told her she could carry her info around on it.  I
> have no experience with them, so I don't know the limitations.  Could she
> carry everything sensitive around on one and leave no traces thereof in a
> computer she used it on? It seems to me she'd need a computer to put info
> ON the thing, as well as to use it.  I really can't see her dealing with
> any kind of protection program.

1) Change banks/brokerages.
2) A USB drive is no more secure than the computer it's plugged into. 
All of the general advice about public vs. private computers still apply.

Steve

-- 
steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, sidecar in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

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#1296

In article <io9lq3$32g$1@dont-email.me>,
 Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> Long intro, but only needs a short answer 8-)
> 
> I know there are some multi-platform people here so I thought I'd ask you. 
> She is about as computer-illiterate as you can imagine, but she says her
> "bank", which sounds like something with brokerage, has informed her that
> in the future she MUST do everything on line. 

Find a new bank/brokerage which doesn't require this.

> She is so security-conscious
> that she won't even use a credit card online

Good for her! She's absolutely correct.

> and is certain that the
> computers at the library are unsafe

She's absolutely correct again. For being computer illiterate, she's 
surprisingly savvy.

> for anything beyond simple e-mail,

I wouldn't trust any public computer with even that. You never know who 
might have installed a keylogger and when the library or internet cafe 
last wiped and reinstalled the system.

> which she only began to use after I helped her open a Yahoo account some
> time ago.
> 
> She is thinking about getting a computer of her own, but her finances are
> quite limited, 

Even more reason to find a bank (much more likely than a brokerage) 
which doesn't require online use.

> so if she does, it would be a cheap little netbook, and
> she'd need a printer as well.  I've been googling around for ideas, and
> hope to at least convince her to take the long drive to the nearest Best
> Buy, at least.  (I wouldn't advise my worst enemy to depend on WalMart!)
> That seems to offer some decent deals, at least, since she won't consider
> shopping on line.
> 
> But someone she met at the library showed her a thumb drive(I presume, from
> her description) and told her she could carry her info around on it.  

Oh, god, NO! Besides the software security issues (see below), thumb 
drives are fragile. They are great for sneakernet or additional 
TEMPORARY storage, but that's it. A small static discharge that you 
don't even notice can kill a thumb drive, especially the generic cheapos.

> I
> have no experience with them, so I don't know the limitations.  Could she
> carry everything sensitive around on one and leave no traces thereof in a
> computer she used it on? 

Anything she loads on a public computer will be there on that hard 
drive. Even if she doesn't load data directly, it may appear, possibly 
unencrypted, in cache files of the system or browser. And this liability 
doesn't address the keylogger vulnerability.

> It seems to me she'd need a computer to put info
> ON the thing, as well as to use it.  

Probably. She's certainly going to need some way to make durable backups 
of her data. 

> I really can't see her dealing with
> any kind of protection program.

There are ways to make thumb drive files secure with either encrypted 
disk images (Mac) or U3 software (Windoze, comes pre-installed on many 
thumb drives), but they may be beyond her skills.

Find another financial institution.

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#1298

Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> wrote:

> In article <io9lq3$32g$1@dont-email.me>,
>  Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> 
> > I know there are some multi-platform people here so I thought I'd ask you.
> > She is about as computer-illiterate as you can imagine, but she says her
> > "bank", which sounds like something with brokerage, has informed her that
> > in the future she MUST do everything on line. 
> 
> Find a new bank/brokerage which doesn't require this.

Amen. Banking is the *LAST* thing a computer-illiterate person should
consider doing with a computer. There simply is *NO WAY* that it can be
done safely if the user is computer illiterate. Let me repeat that
because it is important. *NO WAY*. It is one of the most basic tenets of
computer security that no technical approach can solve the human
problems. (Those problems can sometimes be ameliorated technically, but
never solved).

There simply is no point in trying to go into the technical details;
that just encourages the false hope that they are what makes the
difference. Just don't do it.

Might as well just withdraw all her money and dump it in the middle of
the street. At least that way, some of thepeople who get it might not be
crooks.

(And even the thought of doing such things on a public library computer
is appalling. Even a computer expert who would do that probably just
disproved his expertise. :-()

-- 
Richard Maine                    | Good judgment comes from experience;
email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgment.
domain: summertriangle           |  -- Mark Twain

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#1301

In article <1jzrefn.17gfm7xsv14r6N%nospam@see.signature>, Richard Maine
<nospam@see.signature> wrote:

> Amen. Banking is the *LAST* thing a computer-illiterate person should
> consider doing with a computer. There simply is *NO WAY* that it can be
> done safely if the user is computer illiterate.

nonsense. they might have a lot of trouble figuring out how to use the
bank's web site since most bank websites suck (a lot), but security is
the least of their concerns. banks are incredibly anal about security,
timing out connections, asking the useless security questions, etc. the
last bank for which i signed up for online access required a physical
debit card and a separate mailed passcode. 

if a person is not very computer literate, they probably won't even get
far enough to be able to do anything.

however, using a bank site from a public computer is stupid, for anyone.

> Let me repeat that
> because it is important. *NO WAY*. It is one of the most basic tenets of
> computer security that no technical approach can solve the human
> problems. (Those problems can sometimes be ameliorated technically, but
> never solved).

there's always a risk. walking into a bank is a risk. writing and
mailing a paper check is a risk (a big one, actually). stuffing money
in the mattress is a risk. banking online is the *least* risky of any
of them.

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#1304

In article <150420111305277060%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
 nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <1jzrefn.17gfm7xsv14r6N%nospam@see.signature>, Richard Maine
> <nospam@see.signature> wrote:
> 
> > Amen. Banking is the *LAST* thing a computer-illiterate person should
> > consider doing with a computer. There simply is *NO WAY* that it can be
> > done safely if the user is computer illiterate.
> 
> nonsense. they might have a lot of trouble figuring out how to use the
> bank's web site since most bank websites suck (a lot), but security is
> the least of their concerns. banks are incredibly anal about security,
> timing out connections, asking the useless security questions, etc. the
> last bank for which i signed up for online access required a physical
> debit card and a separate mailed passcode. 

This is really old hat. Over here, you need to use your debit card in a 
little calculator gizmo that generates a one-time password.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#1349

Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> wrote:

> This is really old hat. Over here, you need to use your debit card in a
> little calculator gizmo that generates a one-time password.

Depends both on the bank and the transaction.

Most of my bank accounts (past and present) need only account name and
information from two passwords to view the account and to transfer money
between the account and a previously set up account. Setting up a new
account into which to transfer money may well need such a gizmo.
-- 
<http://www.decohen.com>
The Labyrinth of the Heart: Changed Myths for Changing Lives 
e-book <http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/29317>
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address, not the From address.

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#1305

First of all, thank you, everyone, for the advice, which I'm going to 
try to deal with all at once 8-)

I have told her and told her she ought to switch banks.  She now tells 
me the same thing will happen to me soon and I point out that MY bank, 
in the town where she lives, is a real bank--it is, in fact, actually in 
a brick and mortar building 8-)  Note: she believes, whether or not she 
watches it, the Fox News line on anything you want to name.  I don't see 
her often enough to straighten her out on most things, but she usually 
believes me about computers.

She might need to print things, so a tablet computer wouldn't be a good 
idea.  There are some really cheap netbooks out there, I see, and some 
fairly respectable netbook+printer deals on the Best Buy site.  There IS 
one of those 50-odd miles from here.  

We know it's safe to use credit cards on line most of the time at a 
fairly secure site.  She wants to hand it to a live salesperson 8-(

I'm happy to hear the thumb drive info; I was a bit dubious, and they 
sound pretty bad for someone like her.  I can safely tell her they're 
too dangerous and she ought to believe me.

I do MANY things on line; I just (finally) bought myself a Time Capsule.  
I do NOT choose to bank on line, however.  I don't even pay my credit 
card bill on line--I want the paper in hand to go over item by item. 8-)

I can certainly understand her reluctance to do all her banking on line.  
For someone as inept with computers as she is, it strikes me as asking 
for trouble 8-(   She has a few months yet; I'd REALLY like to talk her 
into switching banks if possible, but there are investments involved.  
From what I DO understand about the situation, it's something I would 
have nothing to do with.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist


http://www.mosaictelecom.com/~erilarlo

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#1350

In article <drache-2708B3.12381515042011@news.eternal-september.org>,
 erilar <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:

> Note: she believes, whether or not she 
> watches it, the Fox News line on anything you want to name.

Okay, then she's certifiably insane, so you should walk away from this 
tar pit.

Now that I've gotten in my tweak at the Wrong Wing, let me seriously 
say, don't walk away from this, RUN. As I write this, I've read through 
the 39 articles which have been posted up to this time. From the 
elaborations you've made about her personality and approach to life, she 
WILL blame you for anything that goes wrong, and something will. It 
always does. And that's before we address the continuing need for tech 
support. I predict with 99% certainty that you'll eventually regret this 
interaction with her. If she rejects your well thought out and well 
researched advice, let her do it on her own. I speak from experience. 
I've had clients like this. Briefly. Life's too short to deal with this 
kind of crap when you're getting _paid_ for it. You're not. Let Glenn 
Beck help her out. I hear he's available. Maybe he can shame George 
Soros into buying her an iPad. Actually, George might, just 'cuz he's A 
Good Guy.

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#1353

Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> wrote:
> In article <drache-2708B3.12381515042011@news.eternal-september.org>,
>  erilar <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Note: she believes, whether or not she 
>> watches it, the Fox News line on anything you want to name.
> 
> Okay, then she's certifiably insane, so you should walk away from this 
> tar pit.

There are days when I pretty much do that as soon as possible.  We swim
laps in the same pool, so I can't run out of the locker room until I'm
dressed  8-)
> 
> Now that I've gotten in my tweak at the Wrong Wing, let me seriously 
> say, don't walk away from this, RUN. As I write this, I've read through 
> the 39 articles which have been posted up to this time. From the 
> elaborations you've made about her personality and approach to life, she 
> WILL blame you for anything that goes wrong, and something will. It 
> always does. And that's before we address the continuing need for tech 
> support. I predict with 99% certainty that you'll eventually regret this 
> interaction with her. If she rejects your well thought out and well 
> researched advice, let her do it on her own. I speak from experience. 
> I've had clients like this. Briefly. Life's too short to deal with this 
> kind of crap when you're getting _paid_ for it. You're not. Let Glenn 
> Beck help her out. I hear he's available. Maybe he can shame George 
> Soros into buying her an iPad. Actually, George might, just 'cuz he's A 
> Good Guy.

She may not accept advice from me in the end anyway 8-)
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad

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#1358

Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> Fred Moore <fmoore@gcfn.org> wrote:
>> In article <drache-2708B3.12381515042011@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>  erilar <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> Note: she believes, whether or not she 
>>> watches it, the Fox News line on anything you want to name.
>> 
>> Okay, then she's certifiably insane, so you should walk away from this 
>> tar pit.
> 
> She may not accept advice from me in the end anyway 8-)

It seemed pretty obvious to me from the first post that any proffered
advice would be a wasted effort. Instead of "I have $X00 to spend to get a
computer which will allow me to do online banking with YYY Bank securely"
we get stuff like "limited funds" and "maybe wants a netbook" and "what
about a thumb drive?". (not exact quotes because it is not worth the
trouble...)

More often than not when a suggestion is made in this sort of situation, it
is almost immediately rejected because it fails to meet some other,
previously unmentioned, criteria ("It needs to match the color of my
drapes.") It becomes a game of twenty questions...

There are some folks who are simply not worth bothering with - directly or
by proxy.

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#1309

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> writes:
> In article <1jzrefn.17gfm7xsv14r6N%nospam@see.signature>, Richard Maine
> <nospam@see.signature> wrote:
>
>> Amen. Banking is the *LAST* thing a computer-illiterate person should
>> consider doing with a computer. There simply is *NO WAY* that it can be
>> done safely if the user is computer illiterate.
>
> nonsense. they might have a lot of trouble figuring out how to use the
> bank's web site since most bank websites suck (a lot), but security is
> the least of their concerns. banks are incredibly anal about security,
> timing out connections, asking the useless security questions, etc. the
> last bank for which i signed up for online access required a physical
> debit card and a separate mailed passcode. 
>
> if a person is not very computer literate, they probably won't even get
> far enough to be able to do anything.

Re: Erilar's original post, the person is considering a netbook.
I'd strongly encourage her to avoid that.  The netbook will almost
certainly be running a terribly insecure operating system which
requires constant vigilance and security updates.  And the banking
would be done via web site, which opens up lots of additional
potential security holes.

While it's far from perfect, she might consider an iPad.  Many of
the banks have written custom iPad apps which offer lots of the
banking features she may need.  The device will require minimal
configuration and the security and security management is far easier
and more reliable than that which a non-computer-literate person
is likely to handle on a netbook.

She still may need to switch banks to get to one which provides
a nice iOS app, but it may well be worth it.

> however, using a bank site from a public computer is stupid, for anyone.

Seconded, thirded, etc.  DO NOT USE A PUBLIC COMPUTER FOR BANKING.

Heck, there just isn't much one should do on a public computer
except, perhaps, browsing some websites and NEVER logging into
any of them with any personal data or personal user IDs.


-- 
Plain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks.  The rest gets trashed.

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#1310

In article <yobvcyfqpkj.fsf@panix2.panix.com>,
<BreadWithSpam@fractious.net> wrote:

> Re: Erilar's original post, the person is considering a netbook.
> I'd strongly encourage her to avoid that.  The netbook will almost
> certainly be running a terribly insecure operating system which
> requires constant vigilance and security updates.  And the banking
> would be done via web site, which opens up lots of additional
> potential security holes.

very good point.

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#1313

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <yobvcyfqpkj.fsf@panix2.panix.com>,
> <BreadWithSpam@fractious.net> wrote:
> 
>> Re: Erilar's original post, the person is considering a netbook.
>> I'd strongly encourage her to avoid that.  The netbook will almost
>> certainly be running a terribly insecure operating system which
>> requires constant vigilance and security updates.  And the banking
>> would be done via web site, which opens up lots of additional
>> potential security holes.
> 
> very good point.

I just saved this by e-mailing it to myself 8-)  I saved most of the
earlier replies more simply;  I was on my laptop last time.  I really fear
that she is not going to want to--if she even can--buy even something as
expensive as a refurb iPad, and she would never go for something used on
ebay, because she absolutely refuses to use her credit card on line.  When
she digs her heels in, there is no moving her.  I will certainly pass along
the warnings about banking on line via the library, which I know she'll
believe.  Maybe if I pass on enough warnings, she might consider changing
banks.  Personally, I find it hard to believe a reputable bank would refuse
to make an exception for people without secure computer access.
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad

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#1328

On 11-04-15 4:40 PM, Erilar wrote:

> she absolutely refuses to use her credit card on line.

If people use their credit cards at all, then it is almost certain that 
their credit card information has already been stolen a dozen times over 
and is already on sale for about 2 USD (cheaper if you buy stolen credit 
card details in bulk) on the black market.

Hotel reservation and check-in systems (not the online stuff) have 
notoriously bad security, and there have been many breaches in large 
(brick and mortar) retailers. In the old days, credit card info was 
stolen at restaurants where you hand your card to a minimum waged 
stranger. But now it is through break-ins on traditional retailers' 
computer systems. The on-line retailers tend to have much better 
security than traditional retailers.

My over all point is that people worry about threats from the wrong 
places. Your friend seems to be an extreme example of this.

Cheers,

-j

-- 
Jeffrey Goldberg          http://goldmark.org/jeff/
I rarely read HTML or poorly quoting posts
Reply-To address is valid

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#1331

In article <90so4rFde2U1@mid.individual.net>,
 Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> wrote:

> If people use their credit cards at all, then it is almost certain that 
> their credit card information has already been stolen a dozen times over 
> and is already on sale for about 2 USD (cheaper if you buy stolen credit 
> card details in bulk) on the black market.

If you were right, after a dozen steals, someone would surely 
have bought them and used it and who would use credit cards if 
theft was that widespread?

-- 
dorayme

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#1347

On 11-04-16 1:50 AM, dorayme wrote:
> In article<90so4rFde2U1@mid.individual.net>,
>   Jeffrey Goldberg<nobody@goldmark.org>  wrote:
>
>> If people use their credit cards at all, then it is almost certain that
>> their credit card information has already been stolen a dozen times over
>> and is already on sale for about 2 USD (cheaper if you buy stolen credit
>> card details in bulk) on the black market.
>
> If you were right, after a dozen steals, someone would surely
> have bought them and used it and who would use credit cards if
> theft was that widespread?

Because it is actually harder to convert stolen credit card info into 
cash (without getting caught) than you might imagine.

This is one of the huge differences between credit card info and banking 
info. Credit card companies are responsible for fraud (after $50) in the 
US, so they really do go make it hard or risky to use. This is why 
credit card details are so cheap on the black market.

With (online) banking, the customer takes the risk instead of the bank. 
So there aren't as many safe guards, and those sorts of details are very 
valuable.

Cheers,

-j


-- 
Jeffrey Goldberg          http://goldmark.org/jeff/
I rarely read HTML or poorly quoting posts
Reply-To address is valid

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#1340

Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> wrote:
> On 11-04-15 4:40 PM, Erilar wrote:
> 
>> she absolutely refuses to use her credit card on line.
> 
> If people use their credit cards at all, then it is almost certain that
> their credit card information has already been stolen a dozen times over
> and is already on sale for about 2 USD (cheaper if you buy stolen credit
> card details in bulk) on the black market.
> 
> Hotel reservation and check-in systems (not the online stuff) have
> notoriously bad security, and there have been many breaches in large
> (brick and mortar) retailers. In the old days, credit card info was
> stolen at restaurants where you hand your card to a minimum waged
> stranger. But now it is through break-ins on traditional retailers'
> computer systems. The on-line retailers tend to have much better security
> than traditional retailers.
> 
> My over all point is that people worry about threats from the wrong
> places. Your friend seems to be an extreme example of this.
> 
She is that 8-). She has some weird convictions about a number of things
that boggle the rational mind.  She's somewhere near my age and unlikely to
shed them.



-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad

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#1337

Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <yobvcyfqpkj.fsf@panix2.panix.com>,
> > <BreadWithSpam@fractious.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> Re: Erilar's original post, the person is considering a netbook.
> >> I'd strongly encourage her to avoid that.  The netbook will almost
> >> certainly be running a terribly insecure operating system which
> >> requires constant vigilance and security updates.  And the banking
> >> would be done via web site, which opens up lots of additional
> >> potential security holes.
> > 
> > very good point.
> 
> I just saved this by e-mailing it to myself 8-)  I saved most of the
> earlier replies more simply;  I was on my laptop last time.  I really fear
> that she is not going to want to--if she even can--buy even something as
> expensive as a refurb iPad, and she would never go for something used on
> ebay, because she absolutely refuses to use her credit card on line.  When
> she digs her heels in, there is no moving her.  I will certainly pass along
> the warnings about banking on line via the library, which I know she'll
> believe.  Maybe if I pass on enough warnings, she might consider changing
> banks.  Personally, I find it hard to believe a reputable bank would refuse
> to make an exception for people without secure computer access.

Of course another option is a dirt cheap Netbook, only running a Linux
OS like Xubuntu  <http://www.xubuntu.org/>. She can use the included
browser (Firefox), Email client (Thunderbird - unless she prefers or is
only used to webmail), word processor (Abiword), etc.

Running minority apps on a minority OS that are rarely every targetted
by hackers, will help a lot to make her secure (same goes for OSX, only
a Mac is obviously far more expensive). In addition she probably won't
know enough to get under the Linux hood and get into trouble, which by
the sound of things is not a bad thing :-) She won't need any security
software in Linux either. As with OSX, there are virtually no viruses in
the wild likely to affect a user such as your friend.

Once she has the above she needs to use strong passwords that are unique
to each important service (e.g. online banking, email, any website that
allows one-click purchasing like Amazon, etc); a generic but still
complex password for stuff she'd like kept private, but it wouldn't be a
huge disaster to have compromised (e.g. a flickr account); and a generic
easy to remember password for everything else (e.g. a mailing list
signup, or anything else she wouldn't lose any sleep over being
compromised).

Finally she needs to understand that she should NEVER login to any
service on a strange, friend's, or public computer. I wouldn't even
trust most workplace computers, especially if IT is anything less than
conscientious.

The password issue is likely to be the most difficult one for
beginner-level user, and you might need to assist her with a password
scheme. Totally random and unique for everything is best, but it's also
sure to fail for anyone without a perfect memory, let alone a
computer-illiterate user!

One scheme I like is making strong, yet easy to recall passwords out of
varying combinations of made up words, numbers and punctuation, e.g.
cAStah45?Noon; - it's not totally random, it includes numbers, symbols
and capitalisation (immediately making it stronger than 99% of the
passwords out there, heh), and there's a pattern to the capitalisation -
as capitalisation within passwords is often particularly hard to recall
(can you see the pattern? ;-) Hint: it treats numbers and symbols as
letters and determines case based on symbol height).

Set your friend up with passwords based on something like my suggestion,
have her write them down (more bad practice, but WTF - in for a penny,
in for a pound!) and store them in a secure place - e.g. a locked
drawer, safe, etc.

Passwords can be painful for the computer-illiterate, but web browsers
like Firefox include password remembering and even sync between
computers, reducing the need for your friend to remember a bunch of
different website passwords when she's at her own computer. So long as
she can remember just one master password for Firefox, she's covered for
all websites (but she should still write down new passwords and store
them in a secure location).

If she's still worried about security, have her (or more likely you)
disable automatic login to her OS user account, and require her web
browser and email client to ask for a master password before access to
saved passwords for websites and email servers is allowed. Then if her
laptop is ever stolen or used without her knowledge it will be much
harder for the criminal to gain access to her sensitive information and
services.
Also setup a screensaver that turns on after a few minutes inactivity,
and requires a password to wake. Likewise waking from sleep should also
require a password.
If she's in a place with other people she should also get in the habit
of activating her screensaver/sleeping/logging out of her user account
(depending on how long she'll be gone) when she steps away from her
computer.
Finally if anyone else ever uses her computer, only allow guest-level
access from a _separate_ throwaway user account.

Now that might be getting a bit too paranoid if she's at home alone, but
it's a good idea out and about.

Anyway - I hope that is off some some help, and do consider a cheap
netbook running Linux! Windows is far from the only choice and is a
terrible one for the computer-illiterate user worried about security.
Think of Linux distros like the excellent Xubuntu as a poor man's OSX so
far as freedom from Window's type security issues goes :-)

Oh, and I also wouldn't put too much stock in some people's fear on
online banking and online shopping. Follow the above, use a credit card
that covers liability from fraud (VISA in NZ for example only makes you
liable for the first NZD$50 of a fraudulent transaction so long as you
report it promptly, and even that will often be waived) and only do
business with reputable companies, and you'll be fine :-) I've been
online banking and shopping online for over ten years, and have yet to
be hacked or defrauded.

Regards,
 Jamie Kahn Genet

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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