Re: Towards true A.I.

Subject	Re: Towards true A.I.
From	curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch)
Organization	NewsReader.Com
Message-ID	<20120330115603.995$Tx@newsreader.com> (permalink)
Newsgroups	comp.ai.philosophy, comp.programming
References	(3 earlier) <fel5lca22zs2.15zo4xugynh4h$.dlg@40tude.net> <REM-2011nov13-005@Yahoo.Com> <1d202j8607dz7.dgimh8xoxlwo$.dlg@40tude.net> <REM-2012mar27-003@Yahoo.Com> <1jwvj1x0ayc05.ytcz87k1p1x4.dlg@40tude.net>
Date	2012-03-30 15:56 +0000

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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"Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:25:47 -0700, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
> wrote:
>
> >> From: "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mail...@dmitry-kazakov.de>

> >> As with an AI for sweeping floor they show unintelligence by
> >> total inability to classify content between "valuable" and "junk."
> >
> > That's yet another dimension, after relevance to what you really
> > wanted to know about.

"what you want" is the foundation of all relevance.  You have neither
extended it or added greater insight to the problem by talking about what
you want to "know" vs what you want to "clean".  It's still all becomes the
same question of relevance which all translates back to action selection.
The job of the brain is to select which behavior to produce at every
instant of a human's life.  That selection problem is the foundational
problem of relevance that the brain solves.  It's the definition of
relevance - or should be.  It's the answer to the question "what do I do
now?".

> An intelligent system is able to maintain a model of the world in which
> things like relevance (as well as many other things) get defined.
> Unintelligent systems are bound to a method to measure relevance. An
> intelligent system does not need that, it already knows what is relevant,
> it is itself a measurement instrument.

Unintelligent systems are bound to a method of measure relevance?  But we
are not?  That makes no sense to me at all.  The brain is very much bound
by genetics to it's innate measures of relevance.  I don't get to choose
whether eating is relevant or not.  My brain is bound by it's innate design
to FORCE me to want to eat.  I don't get to choose whether I want to keep
my skin from being burned.  I'm bound by my innate genetics to not want my
skin to be damaged.

I structure my ENTIRE LIFE around making sure I have food to eat, and that
my skin is protected. That was not a choice I got to make. It was one made
for me by how the structure of my brain evolved.

My brain is a reinforcement learning  machine.  It is very much bound to
the reward signals it is wired to maximize.  It uses those reward signals
to help it calculate which behaviors are the most likely to lead to higher
rewards at any instant in time.  The output of that low level statistically
driven behavior selection process is what we call "human intelligent
behavior".  And we are VERY MUCH bound to the internal systems that measure
that relevance for us.  We are very much bound to the fact that heat
applied to the skin will creates a highly negative measure of relevance,
and we use all our "intelligence" to plot highly complex ways to reduce the
odds of that happening to us in how our "intelligent" brain selects our
behaviors.

In order to do a good job at selecting behaviors for the purpose of
maximizing future rewards, the brain must become a very good reward
predictor.  It must build very complex models of the environment, for the
sole purpose of being a better reward predictor.  It must build an estimate
of how likely any given action, at any second in time, is going to effect
future rewards.  Because of this, a prime secondary purpose of our  brain,
is the assignment of "value" to everything it can sense.  We see value, (or
lack of value aka negative value) in everything.  We can't do a job like
sweeping a floor and not at the same time, assign value to everything we
sense.  The dirt has low value.  Getting it off the floor and into the
trash, has high value - which is why we do the sweeping in the first place.
The stain has low value - unless it happens to look like Elvis, or Jesus,
Homer Simpson, at which times we take pictures of it and post it on
Facebook.  Everything we do and sense comes automatically with a value
judgement attached to it, because that's what the brain is - a value
estimating machine that uses those value estimations to pick our actions.

But all those estimations, are derived from our innately built in reward
hardware created and tuned by millions of years of evolution for its
usefulness in driving our learning brain into producing actions that tend
to work well at keeping us alive.  We are 100% slaves, to our innate low
level reward hardware.  without that innate value defining hardware, we
would have no sense of value at all.

All our derived, aka learned values, are extensions of our value measuring
hardware that we are slaves to.  Dirt only has negative value, because it
leads to increased odds of our skin getting hurt, our of not being able to
eat.

-- 
Curt Welch                                            http://CurtWelch.Com/
curt@kcwc.com                                        http://NewsReader.Com/

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John McCarthy R.I.P. RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-04 13:17 -0700
  Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-09 13:17 -0800
    Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-09 14:04 -0800
      Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 09:45 +0100
        Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-10 01:24 -0800
          Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 12:14 +0100
        Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-11-10 11:38 +0200
          Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 11:54 +0100
            Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-11-10 14:09 +0200
              Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 14:46 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2011-11-13 18:00 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-14 12:07 +0100
                Towards true A.I. (was: John McCarthy R.I.P.) seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-03-27 12:25 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-03-29 15:21 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2012-03-30 15:56 +0000
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-03-30 18:32 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-30 14:20 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-30 15:01 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-04-21 15:53 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2012-04-21 18:47 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2012-04-22 10:03 +0100
                Re: Towards true A.I. Don Stockbauer <donstockbauer@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-22 04:10 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. Gary Forbis <forbisgaryg@msn.com> - 2012-04-02 19:46 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-04-03 09:51 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. Gary Forbis <forbisgaryg@gmail.com> - 2012-04-03 05:22 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-04-04 10:31 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2012-04-05 00:24 +0000
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-04-06 10:41 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2012-04-05 01:00 +0000
                Re: Towards true A.I. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-04-21 15:44 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-04-17 21:57 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-04-21 10:08 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-05-30 00:38 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-05-30 09:43 -0400
                Re: Towards true A.I. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-06-18 11:08 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2012-06-18 13:19 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-06-18 20:51 -0400
                Re: Towards true A.I. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-06-21 01:48 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-06-21 11:40 -0400
                Re: Towards true A.I. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2012-05-30 14:59 +0000
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-05-30 19:25 +0200
            Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-10 16:03 +0000
              Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-10 12:16 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "James" <no@spam.invalid> - 2011-11-10 13:00 -0800
              Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 21:50 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-10 21:07 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-11 11:43 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-12 22:38 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-13 01:32 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-14 15:28 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-14 16:57 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-17 22:19 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-18 10:51 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-14 11:42 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-13 12:45 +0100
    Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-14 10:28 -0800
  Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2011-11-13 16:00 -0800

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