Re: John McCarthy R.I.P.

Subject	Re: John McCarthy R.I.P.
From	curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch)
Organization	NewsReader.Com
Message-ID	<20111114102816.230$oU@newsreader.com> (permalink)
Newsgroups	comp.ai.philosophy, comp.programming
References	(8 earlier) <e7uluxlltfz5$.16a67tgzxck6e$.dlg@40tude.net> <20111110160703.292$eN@newsreader.com> <1m6he4d1l2mly$.bqkh3sdgrl5a$.dlg@40tude.net> <20111112173838.923$L5@newsreader.com> <5f3c82a4-9c4a-4282-8060-c831d82b18bd@u24g2000pru.googlegroups.com>
Date	2011-11-14 15:28 +0000

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Nov 13, 9:38=A0am, c...@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) wrote:
> > [...]
>
> > TD-Gammon used neural networks combined with reinforcement
> > learning to learn how to play the game of backgammon.
> > The guy that wrote it, understood exactly how and why such
> > a system would work.  But after he let it play itself a
> > few million games, it was able to play as well as the best
> > human players.
>
> But the human backgammon players do not have to play a few
> million games, so they are learning in a different way.

That argument is not valid.  They can be learning exactly the same way, but
simply be learning faster, or they can be learning in exactly the same way,
and be applying their lessons in life outside of backgammon, to the game of
backgammon.

The fact that a human doesn't need to play a million games tells us NOTHING
about "what way" a human learns John.

> The ANN is a fancy way of viewing a statistical number
> crunching program which is what computers are good at and
> yes they can find solutions we can't find because we aren't
> doing that kind of number crunching.

The brain is doing the same sort of thing John.  One way or another it must
be doing the same sort of thing.  It can't be learning by operant
conditioning if it were not. Our brains are just statistical number
crunchers that take the lessons of life and uses them to adjust its
synaptic weights and wiring to make it act differently in the future. It's
working in a more analog domain instead of digital as it updates the
weights, but it's doing the same sort of iterative learning process that
works in TD-Gammon.

> The ANN used in TD-Gammon is your cherry picked example
> which proves nothing except there is a findable set of
> weights, using the brute force of a computer, which can
> value a backgammon state.

It proves EXACTLY what I said it proved.  I bring it up because it's
existence proves my point - that the approach can work.

> It says that out of all the possible weight combinations
> there are enough working combinations for this problem to
> find a working set in a few million trials unlike say a
> game of chess.
>
> > Well, we have to define what intelligence is.  I define
> > it in a way that removes all the "magic".  So I don't
> > have to "hope" that it "might" produce "intelligence".
> >
> > I know for fact it DOES produce intelligence per my
> > definition of it.
>
> Your definition is not your definition it is nothing but
> Darwinian evolution.

The way I use the word is what makes it MY DEFINITION you fool.  It's not
because I created something new.

> However not all things can evolve and you don't know what
> is required for a brain or man made system to learn

I know a lot about learning John.  The fact that I can not make a human
level AI only shows I don't know _everything_ I need to know yet.

> only
> that it involves a feedback system that reinforces some
> connections and/or weights and not others.

I know a lot more than that even if you don't.  The field of machine
learning has actually made some very good progress in the past 50 years and
it's not just "update weights from feedback" anymore like it was in the
1950s'.

> > The only think I have to hope for is that my definition
> > of intelligence is correct.
>
> What you call "intelligence" we call "learning". Of course
> all intelligent behavior is the result of learning either
> by the species or in real time by the individual.

Glad to see you are catching on.

-- 
Curt Welch                                            http://CurtWelch.Com/
curt@kcwc.com                                        http://NewsReader.Com/

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John McCarthy R.I.P. RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-04 13:17 -0700
  Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-09 13:17 -0800
    Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-09 14:04 -0800
      Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 09:45 +0100
        Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-10 01:24 -0800
          Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 12:14 +0100
        Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-11-10 11:38 +0200
          Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 11:54 +0100
            Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-11-10 14:09 +0200
              Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 14:46 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2011-11-13 18:00 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-14 12:07 +0100
                Towards true A.I. (was: John McCarthy R.I.P.) seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-03-27 12:25 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-03-29 15:21 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2012-03-30 15:56 +0000
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-03-30 18:32 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-30 14:20 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-30 15:01 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-04-21 15:53 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2012-04-21 18:47 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2012-04-22 10:03 +0100
                Re: Towards true A.I. Don Stockbauer <donstockbauer@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-22 04:10 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. Gary Forbis <forbisgaryg@msn.com> - 2012-04-02 19:46 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-04-03 09:51 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. Gary Forbis <forbisgaryg@gmail.com> - 2012-04-03 05:22 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-04-04 10:31 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2012-04-05 00:24 +0000
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-04-06 10:41 +0200
                Re: Towards true A.I. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2012-04-05 01:00 +0000
                Re: Towards true A.I. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-04-21 15:44 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2012-04-17 21:57 -0700
                Re: Towards true A.I. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-04-21 10:08 +0200
            Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-10 16:03 +0000
              Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-10 12:16 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "James" <no@spam.invalid> - 2011-11-10 13:00 -0800
              Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-10 21:50 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-10 21:07 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-11 11:43 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-12 22:38 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-13 01:32 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-14 15:28 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-14 16:57 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. curt@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) - 2011-11-17 22:19 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-18 10:51 +0100
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. casey <jgkjcasey@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-11-14 11:42 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2011-11-13 12:45 +0100
    Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-14 10:28 -0800
  Re: John McCarthy R.I.P. seeWebInstead@rem.intarweb.org (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) - 2011-11-13 16:00 -0800

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