Re: Alternative to Optical Storage????

Subject	Re: Alternative to Optical Storage????
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.misc, alt.os.linux
References	(5 earlier) <vdb6il$1mt37$1@dont-email.me> <vdcd0m$1se5e$1@dont-email.me> <vdcg84$1srul$1@dont-email.me> <vde1s1$268qv$19@dont-email.me> <vdedah$2983a$1@dont-email.me>
From	"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net>
Organization	wokiesux
Date	2024-10-01 01:29 -0400
Message-ID	<DNWcnebxSdQkFWb7nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@earthlink.com> (permalink)

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 9/30/24 10:41 AM, jjb wrote:
> On 30-09-2024 13:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 29/09/2024 22:18, Paul wrote:
>>> I would say that 6TB air-breathing drives (state on the lid
>>> "do not cover this hole), those are archival material. I
>>> would expect to power one up 20 years from now, and it will work.
>>
>> Well my 2TB drives only lasted about 6 years *powered on*.
>>
>> I am not sanguine about the lifetime of any magnetic media.
>>
>> There are hard drives from back in the 1980s that are still booted up 
>> after years in storage. Some boot, some don't, and some are just 
>> partially corrupted.
>>
>> Magnetic fields are no more permanent than electric fields in SSDs.
>>
>> SSDS are simply too new to have any reliable long term statistics 
>> under real working conditions.
>>
>> The short answer is that we are pissing in the wind when it comes to 
>> any long term digital storage.
>>
>> We know paper and ink lasts, we have the dead sea scrolls..
>>
>> We know that selenium treated photographs last at least 160 years, We 
>> know that first generation colour prints are seriously degraded after 
>> only 50...
>>
>> We know that some spinning rust 40 years on is still data recoverable 
>> , we know that a lot is not.
>>
>> Often for other reasons than magnetic corruption - corrosion on drive 
>> spindles etc. Dead capacitors in the onboard electronics
>>
>> A decent cosmic ray knifing through any modern electronics will fuck 
>> the DRAM up  to the point where the machine may crash.
>>
>> No problem. Reboot it...
>>
>> There are no perfect solutions All data is to an extent written in 
>> 'vanishing ink'
>>
>> But my current best guess is that a rolling replacement of mirrored 
>> disks (rust or SSD) as they show error counts in  a 24x7 powered 
>> machine is probably as good as it gets, and the smaller and slower the 
>> storage is, probably the less stressed it will be. Looking at SSD 
>> current draws, it is the cheaper slower ones that seem to draw less 
>> and run cooler.
>>
>> The best news is that we have SMART. And failing but not yet failed 
>> drives due to ageing show up in terms of parity errors. On a 24x7 system.
>>
>> No one knows till they power up a 40 year old drive whether or not the 
>> data is either still there, or is recoverable.
>>
>>
>> So my wet finger is moving towards permanently on, lower power, 
>> larger, slow SSDS. From permanently on spinning rust.
>>
>> My personal server was first built in 2000 or thereabouts. Debian 
>> Linux. It's on its 4th motherboard and its third set  of hard drives, 
>> and its umpteenth OS upgrade. but the data is still there from 2000 or 
>> so.
>>
>> I am constructing, slowly, a replacement based on a Raspberry PI and 
>> twin mirrored SSDs,
>>
>> When its shown to be reliable, I may switch off the *86 based one
>>
>> I have had another thought, and that is why we 'archive' in the first 
>> place. That goes back to the days when  *working* storage was small, 
>> but the need was for stuff to be available for occasional use from 
>> slower media like tape.
>>
>> Today, with SSDs, our *working* storage can be enormous. And fast. We 
>> no longer need traditional data archives. Just leave it all on the 
>> running machine, and mirror it.
>>
>> If you must have 'offsite storage', rsynch another portable  drive 
>> every so often and take it away to somewhere safe.
>>
> As regards to magnetic storage: if it is a magnetic tape, its not 
> lasting that long.  I had to extract some data from a several years old 
> magnetic tape once.  Fortunately I decided to read and store the whole 
> tape in one go.  After it had passed the heads in the tape unit, the 
> complete magnetic layer ended up as dust on the bottom of the unit...

   Tape sucks on many levels ... it is SLOW and TEDIOUS
   and the coating will not stick to the backing forever.

   However, not SO long ago, it was kinda the ONLY "high
   capacity" media.

   Todays SSDs are indeed fast and have decent capacity
   (magnetics still have more capacity for a lot less).
   However the SSD tech is NOT as reliable as magnetics.
   Bits rot sooner.

   REPLICATION is, for now, the only real fix. Keep
   MOVING yer data to the latest/greatest. "Cloud"
   also offers possibilities - but be careful to use
   ultra-standard compression/encryption methods.
   Oh, when you retire, the New Guys probably won't
   remember to keep paying for the old "cloud" storage ...

   Frankly, I don't think today's data WILL last even
   100 years. Lucky with 50. CD/DVD/BR is already
   going away.

   The formats will become obsolete, the devices/drivers
   are already obsolete. These facts are seriously
   freaking-out archivists already.

   Got one of those old removable-pack hard disk units
   from the late 60s ? MIGHT have moon-landing stuff
   on it. TRY to find anything to READ it. I've got
   some 8-inch floppies with data and some cool FORTRAN
   pgms on them. What can I find to read them ? It's
   a PROBLEM that's just getting worse.

   What DOES last ... baked clay tablets. Still
   readable after 8000 years. You can read all
   about the hero Gilgamesh, note the accounting
   of taxes on wheat in Uruk  :-)

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Alternative to Optical Storage???? Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> - 2024-09-27 16:37 +0000
  Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-09-27 12:40 -0400
    Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Ralf Schneider <schneiderr@freenet.de> - 2024-09-27 17:33 +0000
      Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-09-27 15:05 -0400
      Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2024-09-27 21:06 +0000
      Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-09-27 21:32 -0400
        Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> - 2024-09-28 10:56 +0000
        Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-09-29 06:28 +0000
          Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-09-29 05:27 -0400
            Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2024-09-29 13:23 -0700
              Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-09-29 17:18 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-09-30 01:34 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-09-30 12:29 +0100
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-09-30 12:25 +0100
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? jjb <jjb@invalid.invalid> - 2024-09-30 16:41 +0200
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-01 01:29 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2024-10-02 03:28 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-02 21:50 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-10-03 06:40 +0200
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-10-03 09:58 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-10-04 04:46 +0200
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-10-04 02:19 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-10-04 09:56 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-10-04 12:45 +0100
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-10-05 06:46 +0200
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-10-04 11:16 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-10-04 08:34 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-10-04 11:29 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-10-05 06:57 +0200
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-10-05 06:50 +0200
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-10-05 00:57 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-10-05 01:23 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2024-10-05 07:13 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-10-05 03:33 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2024-10-05 08:42 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-09-30 19:34 -0400
              Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-09-30 11:57 +0100
            Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-09-30 01:49 +0000
    Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-10-01 07:04 +0200
      Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-10-01 01:08 -0400
      Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-10-01 03:10 -0400
        Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-03 01:47 -0400
          Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-10-03 15:34 +0000
          Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-10-03 17:13 +0000
            Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-03 23:31 -0400
              Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-10-04 02:12 -0400
              Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-10-05 07:01 +0200
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-10-05 07:41 -0400
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-10-05 21:03 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-10-05 20:52 +0000
          Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> - 2024-10-03 19:13 +0000
            Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-04 00:35 -0400
        Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-03 02:28 -0400
          Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-10-03 03:10 -0400
            Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-04 01:04 -0400
  Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-09-27 17:36 +0000
    Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Shadow <Sh@dow.br> - 2024-09-27 15:39 -0300
      Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? jjb <jjb@invalid.invalid> - 2024-09-27 21:54 +0200
        Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-09-27 20:38 +0000
    Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> - 2024-09-27 20:26 +0000
      Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-09-28 07:54 +1000
        Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-09-28 01:49 +0000
      Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2024-09-28 15:33 -0700
        Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2024-09-28 23:14 +0000
          Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2024-09-29 13:25 -0700
            Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2024-09-30 00:15 +0000
              Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-09-30 19:40 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2024-10-01 05:35 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2024-10-02 19:14 -0700
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2024-10-04 05:05 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-10-08 21:40 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-10-08 23:22 +0000
                Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-10-03 16:00 +0000
            Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2024-09-30 00:15 +0000
    Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2024-10-01 10:33 +0000
  Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> - 2024-09-28 10:46 +0000
  Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> - 2024-09-28 11:04 +0000
    Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> - 2024-09-28 13:24 +0000
  Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-09-29 00:43 -0400
    Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-09-29 07:21 +0000
      Re: Alternative to Optical Storage???? "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-09-30 00:09 -0400

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