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Threading is foobared?

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  Threading is foobared? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-27 14:01 +1100
    Re: Threading is foobared? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-03-27 14:18 +1100
    Re: Threading is foobared? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-03-27 02:25 -0400
    Re: Threading is foobared? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2016-03-27 11:29 +0100
    Re: Threading is foobared? "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-29 12:26 +0200
      Re: Threading is foobared? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-30 10:43 +1100
        Re: Threading is foobared? "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-30 10:37 +0200
    Re: Threading is foobared? Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-03-29 23:54 +0000
      Re: Threading is foobared? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-03-29 23:34 -0400

#105804 — Threading is foobared?

Am I the only one who has noticed that threading of posts here is severely
broken? It's always been the case that there have been a few posts here and
there that break threading, but now it seems to be much more common.

For instance, I see Jerry Martens' post "help with program". According to my
newsreader, KNode, there are no replies to that thread. But I see a reply
from Chris A. Chris' reply has a header line:

In-Reply-To: <1392737302.749065.1459024715818.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

but Jerry's original has:

References:
<1392737302.749065.1459024715818.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>

Notice the difference? Here the two values lined up:

<1392737302.749065.1459024715818.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
<1392737302.749065.1459024715818.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



-- 
Steven

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#105805

Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> writes:

> Am I the only one who has noticed that threading of posts here is
> severely broken? It's always been the case that there have been a few
> posts here and there that break threading, but now it seems to be much
> more common.

I can't give an objective assessment of whether it has increased or to
what extent.

Thanks for pointing out an objective symptom, though: munging of the
message ID values in various fields.

The resulting broken threads are a constant source of annoyance. I don't
know whether any one host is the culprit, or whether there are many
hosts that are munging the message IDs.

What you've demonstrated is that at least one host is violating
communication standards by altering existing reference fields on
messages in transit.

-- 
 \      “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his |
  `\   salary depends upon his not understanding it.” —Upton Sinclair, |
_o__)                                                             1935 |
Ben Finney

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#105819

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016, at 23:18, Ben Finney wrote:
> What you've demonstrated is that at least one host is violating
> communication standards by altering existing reference fields on
> messages in transit.

The usenet gateway relays posts that originated on the mailing list to
usenet with their *Message-ID* replaced wholesale with
"<mailman.*.python-list@python.org>" - 90% of the time when I've traced
a broken thread this has been to blame, and I've complained at least
twice of this before, once not two weeks ago.

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#105832

On 27/03/2016 07:25, Random832 wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016, at 23:18, Ben Finney wrote:
>> What you've demonstrated is that at least one host is violating
>> communication standards by altering existing reference fields on
>> messages in transit.
>
> The usenet gateway relays posts that originated on the mailing list to
> usenet with their *Message-ID* replaced wholesale with
> "<mailman.*.python-list@python.org>" - 90% of the time when I've traced
> a broken thread this has been to blame, and I've complained at least
> twice of this before, once not two weeks ago.

And I apologise because I saw that complaint and had meant to reply. In 
short, it's not the list owners who manage the gateway but rather the 
mailman administrators for the whole of the python.org lists. I do 
remember some discussion / explanation of possible problems when the 
mailman version was upgraded a few months ago. I'll try to dig those out 
and follow up with the people involved.

FWIW I assume the issue is with the mail -> news gateway as I see no 
problems with the mailing list threading (at least using TB on Windows) 
and the archive doesn't appear to lose threading either AFAICT. Please 
feel free to point out if I'm wrong about that.

TJG

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#105977

On 27.03.2016 05:01, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Am I the only one who has noticed that threading of posts here is severely
> broken? It's always been the case that there have been a few posts here and
> there that break threading, but now it seems to be much more common.

I agree. Didn't we both already have a conversation about this? I 
thought it is my thunderbird messing things up.

Best,
Sven

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#106018

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 09:26 pm, Sven R. Kunze wrote:

> On 27.03.2016 05:01, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Am I the only one who has noticed that threading of posts here is
>> severely broken? It's always been the case that there have been a few
>> posts here and there that break threading, but now it seems to be much
>> more common.
> 
> I agree. Didn't we both already have a conversation about this? I
> thought it is my thunderbird messing things up.

I'm not using Thunderbird, so whatever the cause of the problem, it is not
specific to Thunderbird.



-- 
Steven

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#106034

On 30.03.2016 01:43, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 09:26 pm, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>
>> On 27.03.2016 05:01, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> Am I the only one who has noticed that threading of posts here is
>>> severely broken? It's always been the case that there have been a few
>>> posts here and there that break threading, but now it seems to be much
>>> more common.
>> I agree. Didn't we both already have a conversation about this? I
>> thought it is my thunderbird messing things up.
> I'm not using Thunderbird, so whatever the cause of the problem, it is not
> specific to Thunderbird.
>
>
>


Haha, how nice. My thread view shows your reply as a sibling not a child 
to my mail. I assume you replied to my mail. How strange.


Best,
Sven

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#106019

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Am I the only one who has noticed that threading of posts here is severely
> broken? It's always been the case that there have been a few posts here and
> there that break threading, but now it seems to be much more common.
>
> For instance, I see Jerry Martens' post "help with program". According to my
> newsreader, KNode, there are no replies to that thread. But I see a reply
> from Chris A. Chris' reply has a header line:
>
> In-Reply-To: <1392737302.749065.1459024715818.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
>
> but Jerry's original has:
>
> References:
> <1392737302.749065.1459024715818.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
>
> Notice the difference? Here the two values lined up:
>
> <1392737302.749065.1459024715818.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
> <1392737302.749065.1459024715818.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
>

Just read on Usenet instead of through the mailing list.  That way
you can accept broken threading as a given rather than wonder why it's
happening in a particular case.

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com

Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.

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#106025

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016, at 19:54, Rob Gaddi wrote:
> Just read on Usenet instead of through the mailing list.  That way
> you can accept broken threading as a given rather than wonder why it's
> happening in a particular case.

It's a given everywhere. Any thread that contains a sufficient number of
replies from both users using usenet and users using the mailing list
(gmane counts as the mailing list, since it _doesn't_ do the broken
stuff) is going to be broken for everyone everywhere, though it will be
broken in different places. For users reading by the mailing list,
Usenet users' replies to Mailing List users will be broken (but their
replies to each other will be fine). For users reading by Usenet,
Mailing List users' replies to each other will be broken (though all
replies made via Usenet or to Usenet users will be fine).

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