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Re: Newcomer Help

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  Re: Newcomer Help Walter Hughey <wkhughey@gmail.com> - 2014-02-11 11:49 -0500
    Re: Newcomer Help Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-11 19:01 -0800
      Re: Newcomer Help Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 15:14 +1100
        Re: Newcomer Help Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-12 15:17 +0000
          Re: Newcomer Help Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 04:56 +1100
          Re: Newcomer Help Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 08:07 +1100
          Re: Newcomer Help Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 08:22 +1100

#65929 — Re: Newcomer Help

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No, Gisle Vanem - I do NOT get the picture. First of all you did NOT answer my question. And this is the way I always have - and the people I typically respond to - respond to emails. 


Check the end - if that is where you expect me to enter any additional info. 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gisle Vanem" <gvanem@yahoo.no> 
To: "Walter Hughey" <wkhughey@gmail.com> 
Cc: python-list@python.org 
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 4:13:44 PM 
Subject: Re: Newcomer Help 

"Walter Hughey" <wkhughey@gmail.com> wrote: 

> Thank you for your reply. One quick question, when 
> I reply should it be replay to all or to the person who sent the emial? 

When replying, the most important thing to remember is... order. 

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. 
Q: Why is it such a bad thing? 
A: Top-posting. 
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? 

Get the picture now newcomer? 

--gv 

------ this crap came from you --------- 


> 
> 
> Apple does install a version of Python, normally a somewhat older version. My computer has 2.5 and 2.6 installed and I have opened 
> it and inserted code that works. I do need a way to write the code, test it, and then save a copy to turn in for the assignment. I 
> was not aware that a normal text editor would work. I shall definitely look at that later today. 
> 
> 
> Walter 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: "Rustom Mody" <rustompmody@gmail.com> 
> To: python-list@python.org 
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 11:07:14 AM 
> Subject: Re: Newcomer Help 
> 
> On Monday, February 10, 2014 9:40:22 PM UTC+5:30, Walter Hughey wrote: 
>> I am new to Python programming, actually new to any programming language. I sent the email below to the "python...@python.org a 
>> few days ago. So far I have not seen a reply, actually, I have not seen anything from pythonmac in any emails although I am 
>> supposed to be a member. 
>> 
>> 
>> I don't know if I am sending these to the correct place or if I am not receiving emails from the pythonmac list. I would 
>> appreciate any assistance either in how do I get to the pythonmac list or answers to the issue below. I went to the pythonmac 
>> list because I am trying to run Python 3.3 on a Mac computer. 
>> 
>> 
>> Thank you, 
>> 
>> 
>> Walter 
>> 
>> From: "Walter Hughey" <wkhu...@gmail.com> 
>> To: python...@python.org 
>> Sent: Friday, February 7, 2014 11:54:49 AM 
>> Subject: Newcomer Help 
>> 
>> 
>> Greetings, 
>> I am new at Python programming, technically a newbie at writing programming code. I have been involved in the maintenance of 
>> computers for several years and have decided to increase my knowledge and experience. I am taking a course that - although not a 
>> programming course - does require writing of code. I am trying to use Python to write the code. 
>> 
>> I use a Mac computer and the first issue is getting working with Python. The computer I currently use is running Mac OS X 10.6.8, 
>> Intel Core i5 Processor, with 4GB RAM. It has Python 2.3, 2.5, and 2.6 installed by Apple. I have added Python 3.3, the version 
>> our Professor recommended. I have checked out the Python installed by Apple and can enter in code and it works, but I need to 
>> create a file, run it, and then provide it for the Professor to grade and I don't know how with the Apple installed version. 
>> 
>> While reading about Python, I saw comments about the note concerning outdated software: If you are using Python from a python.org 
>> 64-bit/32-bit Python installer for Mac OS X 10.6 and later, 
>> you should only use IDLE or tkinter with an updated 
>> third-party Tcl/Tk 8.5, like 
>> ActiveTcl 8.5 
>> installed. 
>> 
>> I located, downloaded and installed the recommended version of ActiveTcl 8.5.15.0. When I open Idle, I see a warning that "The 
>> version of Tcl/Tk (8.5.7) in use may be unstable." I received this warning both before and after installing the software above. I 
>> open Idle, choose "New File" then most often the computer will freeze, Idle does nothing, cannot enter text into the text box, 
>> cannot close the application either with the red circle or by selecting Idle>Close Idle. As often as that, Idle freezes as soon 
>> as I open new file, and I cannot close without resorting to Force Quit. 
>> 
>> I have removed and re-installed Python after downloading and installing the Tcl/Tk software and it does not help. I have seen 
>> this work fine on a Mac running Mac OS X 10.8.3. I really just need to get this working on the older version. 
>> 
>> A am not only new to Python, I am new on this list and hope I have started my stay here in the correct manner! 
>> 
> 
> Hi! You have started on a clear note and are welcome here. 
> I dont know anything about macs so hopefully someone else will give you 
> more specific answers. 
> 
> However can you check that python interpreter runs in a shell, and that 
> after starting it if you type say: 
> 2 + 3 RETURN 
> you get 5 
> 
> If that is the case you can still develop the way most python programmers 
> develop, viz 
> Write your code in a normal text editor 
> Load it into the interpreter 
> Check it 
> Go back to the editor and continue writing/correcting the code 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list 
> 
> 

I suppose what you mean by "top posting" is replying to an email by entering a reply at the top when according to your policies and procedures - a person should reply at the bottom of the email - like this. IF/WHEN I am on this site, I shall do my utmost best to change the way I and the people I normally work with to reply at the bottom, Assuming Gisle Vanem this is what you mean and what you want. 


This "newcomer" apologizes for ------ this crap came from you ---------. 


I hope I have not totally destroyed all of everybody's systems with my inappropriate and thoughtless disregard for the sanctity of this site. May be it be best I not reply/ask for help/or in any way be involved in this site. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list 
> 

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#65985

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:19:53 PM UTC+5:30, Walter Hughey wrote:
> 
> This "newcomer" apologizes for ------ this crap came from you ---------.

Firstly, on the behalf of the list, Apologies for uncalled for and unhelpful
rudeness

> I suppose what you mean by "top posting" is replying to an email by entering 
> a reply at the top when according to your policies and procedures - a person 
> should reply at the bottom of the email - like this. IF/WHEN I am on this 
> site, I shall do my utmost best to change the way I and the people I normally 
> work with to reply at the bottom, Assuming Gisle Vanem this is what you mean 
> and what you want.


See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

Most people here prefer interleaved posting with significant trimming.
In other contexts eg corporates, often the culture is the opposite:
top-posting with strictly NO trimming.

And one more suggestion:
Use text mode for your posts not html



> 
> 
> I hope I have not totally destroyed all of everybody's systems with my inappropriate and thoughtless disregard for the sanctity of this site. May be it be best I not reply/ask for help/or in any way be involved in this site.

No you have done no such thing and I hope you wont generalize one instance 
to the whole community

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#65993

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:19:53 PM UTC+5:30, Walter Hughey wrote:
> > I suppose what you mean by "top posting" is replying to an email by
> > entering a reply at the top

That's right. Top-posting is wasteful of the reader's time while it also
omits a lot of contextual information.

> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
>
> Most people here prefer interleaved posting with significant trimming.

It's worth pointing out that you will likely find the “interleaved
posting with trimmed quotations” to be *acceptable* virtually everywhere
on the internet. So it's a good practice to adopt for all such forums.

> In other contexts eg corporates, often the culture is the opposite:
> top-posting with strictly NO trimming.

I've never found a corporation that objects to the sensible
conversation-style, minimal-quotes-for-context interleaved posting style.

> And one more suggestion:
> Use text mode for your posts not html

Yes, especially for technical forums where you'll need to frequently
show *exactly* what text you mean, without unexpected rendering
differences.

-- 
 \          “Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; |
  `\    those in philosophy only ridiculous.” —David Hume, _A Treatise |
_o__)                                           of Human Nature_, 1739 |
Ben Finney

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#66043

On 2014-02-12, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>
>> In other contexts eg corporates, often the culture is the opposite:
>> top-posting with strictly NO trimming.
>
> I've never found a corporation that objects to the sensible
> conversation-style, minimal-quotes-for-context interleaved posting style.

I've always worked in corporations where the email "culture" is the
Microsoft-induced "lazy and stupid" style as you describe.  And yet
when I respond with editted quotes and interleaved repies like this I
consitently get nothing favorable comments about it.  Some people have
even asked how I do it -- though they don't seem to adopt it.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! FEELINGS are cascading
                                  at               over me!!!
                              gmail.com            

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#66065

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 2:17 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2014-02-12, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>>
>>> In other contexts eg corporates, often the culture is the opposite:
>>> top-posting with strictly NO trimming.
>>
>> I've never found a corporation that objects to the sensible
>> conversation-style, minimal-quotes-for-context interleaved posting style.
>
> I've always worked in corporations where the email "culture" is the
> Microsoft-induced "lazy and stupid" style as you describe.

Lazy, stupid, and vulnerable to a major privacy breach. I haven't
personally experienced this, but my Mum has on occasion: a (lengthy)
private conversation between two people in an organization, then they
come to a conclusion that should go public, and cc someone outside the
organization (my Mum, in this case) on the final email...... complete
with the entire history. Yup.

ChrisA

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#66087

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On 13 February 2014 02:17, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 2014-02-12, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> >
> >> In other contexts eg corporates, often the culture is the opposite:
> >> top-posting with strictly NO trimming.
> >
> > I've never found a corporation that objects to the sensible
> > conversation-style, minimal-quotes-for-context interleaved posting style.
>
> I've always worked in corporations where the email "culture" is the
> Microsoft-induced "lazy and stupid" style as you describe.  And yet
> when I respond with editted quotes and interleaved repies like this I
> consitently get nothing favorable comments about it.  Some people have
> even asked how I do it -- though they don't seem to adopt it.
>

Yep - the problem is that you usually have to fight against the tools to do
it. It's worth the effort, but it can be really hard when you've got an
already existing top-posted email thread with people using bizarre fonts
and colours throughout.

Tim Delaney

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#66091

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Tim Delaney
<timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13 February 2014 02:17, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I've always worked in corporations where the email "culture" is the
>> Microsoft-induced "lazy and stupid" style as you describe.  And yet
>> when I respond with editted quotes and interleaved repies like this I
>> consitently get nothing favorable comments about it.  Some people have
>> even asked how I do it -- though they don't seem to adopt it.
>
>
> Yep - the problem is that you usually have to fight against the tools to do
> it. It's worth the effort, but it can be really hard when you've got an
> already existing top-posted email thread with people using bizarre fonts and
> colours throughout.

Ugh, yes. I run a mailman list for a non-profit organization's
committee... some of the people on that list know about standard
netiquette, but others will quote the entire thread and add a "me too"
with a multi-font, multi-color signature. When the latter sort get
into conversation, it's possible for emails to trip the "messages over
this many bytes go to the moderator" rule... I've given up trying to
explain. :|

ChrisA

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