Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #38887 > unrolled thread

Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help

Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.python

Contents

  Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-15 08:52 +1100
    Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help Giles Coochey <giles@coochey.net> - 2013-02-15 11:24 +0000
      Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-16 01:04 +1100
        Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help Giles Coochey <giles@coochey.net> - 2013-02-15 14:17 +0000
        Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-02-15 11:11 -0500
        Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2013-02-15 09:09 -0800
    Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2013-02-15 13:15 +0100
      Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-16 14:53 +1100
    Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help Quint Rankid <qbr567@gmail.com> - 2013-02-15 20:06 -0800
    Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-02-15 21:17 -0800
    Python trademark - A request for civility Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-16 16:48 +1100
      Re: Python trademark - A request for civility Michael Poeltl <michael.poeltl@univie.ac.at> - 2013-02-16 11:02 +0100

#38887 — Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help

Hello all,


The Python Software Foundation is the organisation which protects and
manages the "boring" bits of keeping a big open source project alive: the
legal and contractual parts, funding for projects, trademarks and
copyrights.

If you are based in Europe, or know somebody who uses Python in Europe, the
PSF needs your help.

There is a company in the UK who has applied to trademark the name "Python"
and are claiming the *exclusive* right to use the word "Python" for
software, servers, and web services over the entire European Union.

You can read more about this here:

http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html

If you have documentation of European user groups, trade associations,
books, conferences, scans of job advertisements for Python programmers,
software that uses some variation of "Python" in the name, etc. your
evidence will be helpful in defeating this attempted grab of the Python
name.

You can also testify to the fact that when you read or hear of the
name "Python" in relation to computers and the Internet, you think of
Python the programming language.


Thank you.



-- 
Steven

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#38916

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 14/02/2013 21:52, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Hello all,
>
>
> The Python Software Foundation is the organisation which protects and
> manages the "boring" bits of keeping a big open source project alive: the
> legal and contractual parts, funding for projects, trademarks and
> copyrights.
>
> If you are based in Europe, or know somebody who uses Python in Europe, the
> PSF needs your help.
>
> There is a company in the UK who has applied to trademark the name "Python"
> and are claiming the *exclusive* right to use the word "Python" for
> software, servers, and web services over the entire European Union.
>
> You can read more about this here:
>
> http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html
>
> If you have documentation of European user groups, trade associations,
> books, conferences, scans of job advertisements for Python programmers,
> software that uses some variation of "Python" in the name, etc. your
> evidence will be helpful in defeating this attempted grab of the Python
> name.
>
Err... 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=python

One would think that is enough. 8,457 published results - practically 
all of them referring to Python (the language), none to my knowledge 
referring to python.co.uk

Surely and open/shut case.

-- 
Regards,

Giles Coochey, CCNA, CCNAS
NetSecSpec Ltd
+44 (0) 7983 877438
http://www.coochey.net
http://www.netsecspec.co.uk
giles@coochey.net

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38920

Giles Coochey wrote:

[...]
>> If you have documentation of European user groups, trade associations,
>> books, conferences, scans of job advertisements for Python programmers,
>> software that uses some variation of "Python" in the name, etc. your
>> evidence will be helpful in defeating this attempted grab of the Python
>> name.
>>
> Err...
>http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=python
> 
> One would think that is enough.

Giles, thank you for taking the time to respond, but I'm sorry to say that I
don't think your response is helpful. Unless you are a trademark lawyer,
your intuition about how trivially easy this will be is probably not going
to be accurate.

You would probably think it was presumptuous for a trademark lawyer to
venture an opinion on how easy it is to write some piece of software. The
same applies in reverse. We need to listen to the experts in European
trademark law, those who know what sort of evidence the European Trademark
Office consider meaningful and significant. These people have told the
Python Software Foundation what needs to be done to fight this trademark
application, and trust me, "spend two seconds doing a search on Amazon" is
*not* it.

Dismissing the trademark grab as:

> Surely and open/shut case.

is the simplest way to ensure that the PSF loses their appeal and the right
to the name "Python" in Europe.

If anyone has the sort of documentary evidence which the PSF has requested,
and can scan and email them to the PSF, that will be helpful. If anyone is
willing and able to donate money to the foundation to help with the legal
expenses, estimated at tens of thousands of dollars, to challenge this
trademark application, that will also be helpful. If you have a blog,
please consider spreading the word.

The PSF needs all the help it can get, but it needs to be the sort of help
set out here:

http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html

If anyone is thinking of doing something trivially easy which anyone can do,
such as googling "python", trust me, the PSF has already done it. The PSF
is looking for the sort of help that they can't get by typing into a search
engine. If anyone can help, that's great. If you can't help, then please
don't discourage those who can by claiming this is trivial.

Thank you.


-- 
Steven

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38921

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 15/02/2013 14:04, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Giles Coochey wrote:
>
> [...]
>>> If you have documentation of European user groups, trade associations,
>>> books, conferences, scans of job advertisements for Python programmers,
>>> software that uses some variation of "Python" in the name, etc. your
>>> evidence will be helpful in defeating this attempted grab of the Python
>>> name.
>>>
>> Err...
>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=python
>>
>> One would think that is enough.
> Giles, thank you for taking the time to respond, but I'm sorry to say that I
> don't think your response is helpful. Unless you are a trademark lawyer,
> your intuition about how trivially easy this will be is probably not going
> to be accurate.
>
> You would probably think it was presumptuous for a trademark lawyer to
> venture an opinion on how easy it is to write some piece of software. The
> same applies in reverse. We need to listen to the experts in European
> trademark law, those who know what sort of evidence the European Trademark
> Office consider meaningful and significant. These people have told the
> Python Software Foundation what needs to be done to fight this trademark
> application, and trust me, "spend two seconds doing a search on Amazon" is
> *not* it.
>
> Dismissing the trademark grab as:
>
>> Surely and open/shut case.
> is the simplest way to ensure that the PSF loses their appeal and the right
> to the name "Python" in Europe.
>
> If anyone has the sort of documentary evidence which the PSF has requested,
> and can scan and email them to the PSF, that will be helpful. If anyone is
> willing and able to donate money to the foundation to help with the legal
> expenses, estimated at tens of thousands of dollars, to challenge this
> trademark application, that will also be helpful. If you have a blog,
> please consider spreading the word.
>
> The PSF needs all the help it can get, but it needs to be the sort of help
> set out here:
>
> http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html
>
> If anyone is thinking of doing something trivially easy which anyone can do,
> such as googling "python", trust me, the PSF has already done it. The PSF
> is looking for the sort of help that they can't get by typing into a search
> engine. If anyone can help, that's great. If you can't help, then please
> don't discourage those who can by claiming this is trivial.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
In order to register "Python" in Europe it has to be deemed registrable 
by OHIM.

It is clearly not registrable as there is substantial prior use.

-- 
Regards,

Giles Coochey, CCNA, CCNAS
NetSecSpec Ltd
+44 (0) 7983 877438
http://www.coochey.net
http://www.netsecspec.co.uk
giles@coochey.net

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38926

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Giles Coochey wrote:
>
> [...]
> >> If you have documentation of European user groups, trade associations,
> >> books, conferences, scans of job advertisements for Python programmers,
> >> software that uses some variation of "Python" in the name, etc. your
> >> evidence will be helpful in defeating this attempted grab of the Python
> >> name.
> >>
> > Err...
> >
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=python
> >
> > One would think that is enough.
>
> Giles, thank you for taking the time to respond, but I'm sorry to say that
> I
> don't think your response is helpful. Unless you are a trademark lawyer,
> your intuition about how trivially easy this will be is probably not going
> to be accurate.
>
> You would probably think it was presumptuous for a trademark lawyer to
> venture an opinion on how easy it is to write some piece of software. The
> same applies in reverse. We need to listen to the experts in European
> trademark law, those who know what sort of evidence the European Trademark
> Office consider meaningful and significant. These people have told the
> Python Software Foundation what needs to be done to fight this trademark
> application, and trust me, "spend two seconds doing a search on Amazon" is
> *not* it.
>
> Dismissing the trademark grab as:
>
> > Surely and open/shut case.
>
> is the simplest way to ensure that the PSF loses their appeal and the right
> to the name "Python" in Europe.
>
> If anyone has the sort of documentary evidence which the PSF has requested,
> and can scan and email them to the PSF, that will be helpful. If anyone is
> willing and able to donate money to the foundation to help with the legal
> expenses, estimated at tens of thousands of dollars, to challenge this
> trademark application, that will also be helpful. If you have a blog,
> please consider spreading the word.
>
> The PSF needs all the help it can get, but it needs to be the sort of help
> set out here:
>
>
> http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html
>
> If anyone is thinking of doing something trivially easy which anyone can
> do,
> such as googling "python", trust me, the PSF has already done it. The PSF
> is looking for the sort of help that they can't get by typing into a search
> engine. If anyone can help, that's great. If you can't help, then please
> don't discourage those who can by claiming this is trivial.
>

I'm not offering much help here, more like wondering aloud.  Doesn't Google
(not to mention other software companies) have an interest staked in
binding the Python name with the Python language?  I can't imagine
python.co.uk staging a successful campaign against one of the best-known
companies in computers (that employs Python's creator, no less).

FWIW, Python is becoming more and more popular in the computational life
sciences field (do a search for "computational chemistry python" in
scholar.google.com, for instance).  It is becoming a core part of the
software solutions marketed by companies that write programs for this field
(e.g. Schrodinger, OpenEye, Accelrys, CCG -- I only know the North American
companies).  Virtually all of them ship/sell support scripts written in
Python and/or provide a Python-based API into their software for easy
modification.

These companies pitch Python integration into their marketing schemes as a
way of selling themselves as easy-to-use, highly flexible/customizable
software (with support, obviously).  Their biggest customers are big
pharmaceutical companies, so I imagine there is a good bit of interest in
that sector for defending the Python name for PSF.

All the best,
Jason

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38931

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Feb 15, 2013 8:13 AM, "Jason Swails" <jason.swails@gmail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
> I'm not offering much help here, more like wondering aloud.  Doesn't
Google (not to mention other software companies) have an interest staked in
binding the Python name with the Python language?  I can't imagine
python.co.uk staging a successful campaign against one of the best-known
companies in computers (that employs Python's creator, no less).

That very last part is actually no longer the case:
https://tech.dropbox.com/2012/12/welcome-guido/
Regardless, your general point still stands.

Cheers,
Chris

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38917

Giles Coochey, 15.02.2013 12:24:
> On 14/02/2013 21:52, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> The Python Software Foundation is the organisation which protects and
>> manages the "boring" bits of keeping a big open source project alive: the
>> legal and contractual parts, funding for projects, trademarks and
>> copyrights.
>>
>> If you are based in Europe, or know somebody who uses Python in Europe, the
>> PSF needs your help.
>>
>> There is a company in the UK who has applied to trademark the name "Python"
>> and are claiming the *exclusive* right to use the word "Python" for
>> software, servers, and web services over the entire European Union.
>>
>> You can read more about this here:
>>
>> http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html
>>
>>
>> If you have documentation of European user groups, trade associations,
>> books, conferences, scans of job advertisements for Python programmers,
>> software that uses some variation of "Python" in the name, etc. your
>> evidence will be helpful in defeating this attempted grab of the Python
>> name.
>>
> Err...
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=python
> 
> 
> One would think that is enough. 8,457 published results - practically all
> of them referring to Python (the language), none to my knowledge referring
> to [domain stripped]
> 
> Surely and open/shut case.

I'm sure it's a pure marketing thing for their domain. I'd expect the
number of links to their site to rise rapidly during the next weeks, that's
very likely worth the bit of money they'd pay to their lawyer(s). Seriously
- who's ever heard of them before this? So it worked already, didn't it?

My advice: don't mention their name or their domain in any of your blog
posts etc., and definitely don't link to them.

Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38988

Stefan Behnel wrote:

> I'm sure it's a pure marketing thing for their domain. I'd expect the
> number of links to their site to rise rapidly during the next weeks,
> that's very likely worth the bit of money they'd pay to their lawyer(s).

I doubt that. The amount of time required to make a trademark application is
significant, measured in months or years of elapsed time and persons-days
or -weeks, in effort.


> Seriously - who's ever heard of them before this? So it worked already,
> didn't it?

Just because they aren't Microsoft or Apple doesn't mean they aren't a
serious vendor in their space.


> My advice: don't mention their name or their domain in any of your blog
> posts etc., and definitely don't link to them.

This would be the "there's no such thing as bad publicity" theory.



-- 
Steven

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38991

On Feb 14, 4:52 pm, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:

> You can also testify to the fact that when you read or hear of the
> name "Python" in relation to computers and the Internet, you think of
> Python the programming language.

Has anyone considered a search of Amazon for Python, or more
particularly searches at sites that Amazon uses to do business in
Europe?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38994

The news is featured as an article on Groklaw now.

Those folks are on it...

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130215074839583

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38998 — Python trademark - A request for civility

Folks,

It seems that people have been sending threats and abuse to the company
claiming a trademark on the name "Python". And somebody, somewhere, may
have launched a DDOS attack on their website.

The Python Software Foundation has asked the community for restraint and
civility during this dispute. Abuse and threats just bring the Python
community into disrepute.

http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/asking-for-civility-during-our.html



-- 
Steven

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38999 — Re: Python trademark - A request for civility

hi,

there are also

ruby.co.uk
lua.co.uk

in my opinion someone who is on the ruby-/lua-malinglist too should warn these guys

* Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> [2013-02-16 06:50]:
> Folks,
> 
> It seems that people have been sending threats and abuse to the company
> claiming a trademark on the name "Python". And somebody, somewhere, may
> have launched a DDOS attack on their website.
> 
> The Python Software Foundation has asked the community for restraint and
> civility during this dispute. Abuse and threats just bring the Python
> community into disrepute.

yeah - that's also my opinion!

Michael
> 
> http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/asking-for-civility-during-our.html
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steven
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 
Michael Poeltl
Computational Materials Physics      voice: +43-1-4277-51409
Univ. Wien, Sensengasse 8/12         fax:   +43-1-4277-9514 (or 9513) 
A-1090 Wien, AUSTRIA   cmp.mpi.univie.ac.at 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
slackware-13.37 | vim-7.3 | python-3.2.3 | mutt-1.5.21 | elinks-0.12
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | comp.lang.python

csiph-web