Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!aioe.org!news.stack.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed3.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.011 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.98; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.05; 'case.': 0.05; '*not*': 0.07; 'great.': 0.07; 'subject:help': 0.07; 'api': 0.09; 'scripts': 0.09; 'python': 0.09; 'meaningful': 0.09; 'psf,': 0.09; 'psf.': 0.09; 'spreading': 0.09; 'cc:addr :python-list': 0.10; 'do,': 0.15; 'psf': 0.15; 'applies': 0.15; '"python",': 0.16; '>>': 0.16; '(do': 0.16; 'creator,': 0.16; 'enough.': 0.16; 'err...': 0.16; 'googling': 0.16; 'intuition': 0.16; 'language?': 0.16; 'pitch': 0.16; 'programmers,': 0.16; 'python-based': 0.16; 'simplest': 0.16; 'subject:under': 0.16; 'to:addr:pearwood.info': 0.16; 'to:addr:steve+comp.lang.python': 0.16; "to:name:steven d'aprano": 0.16; 'trivially': 0.16; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Ex4onxgZQ4ZW+5F0+QVZchnJDeqolF7gmoU7t4KrqWI=; b=oVKV0lXiS8BN3IAbRz7yJApkt6xZYv7Ch//MEYt7HUVomsCBLfW7WvJsM/+qQGONM3 J3dnKiGlTjD87ek6U3g0trqGLvcueFfrKSaNYPpMTMwJLeliFkqDR61tBpjzOABqdwcA iFhQ5/C3+1BvmVYstXl/wQm/Vy7WDOytgPxVuhVtz0r7sSXgpUnvEGcP0zE68q6gPTjp 5xFTNpveAeeoDDEMk5Q7sF/MUAznvFPz0tAeKSxikLtDydphMcXgBZDKtgeOpcLmHify 1ZxXgoX7ZIrE4z1XTkBlVyAYjmHuikyEGa6nCuZwx5v6LjjjBsMA/lx+FRfoeGN1Z+h8 kCIg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.236.38 with SMTP id ur6mr2955560igc.19.1360944709509; Fri, 15 Feb 2013 08:11:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <511e4077$0$29966$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> References: <511d5caf$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <511e4077$0$29966$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 11:11:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Python trademark under attack -- the PSF needs your help From: Jason Swails To: "Steven D'Aprano" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9340bb3f821d904d5c5a1b5 Cc: python-list@python.org X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 198 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1360944728 news.xs4all.nl 6878 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:40552 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:38926 --14dae9340bb3f821d904d5c5a1b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Steven D'Aprano < steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote: > Giles Coochey wrote: > > [...] > >> If you have documentation of European user groups, trade associations, > >> books, conferences, scans of job advertisements for Python programmers, > >> software that uses some variation of "Python" in the name, etc. your > >> evidence will be helpful in defeating this attempted grab of the Python > >> name. > >> > > Err... > > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=python > > > > One would think that is enough. > > Giles, thank you for taking the time to respond, but I'm sorry to say that > I > don't think your response is helpful. Unless you are a trademark lawyer, > your intuition about how trivially easy this will be is probably not going > to be accurate. > > You would probably think it was presumptuous for a trademark lawyer to > venture an opinion on how easy it is to write some piece of software. The > same applies in reverse. We need to listen to the experts in European > trademark law, those who know what sort of evidence the European Trademark > Office consider meaningful and significant. These people have told the > Python Software Foundation what needs to be done to fight this trademark > application, and trust me, "spend two seconds doing a search on Amazon" is > *not* it. > > Dismissing the trademark grab as: > > > Surely and open/shut case. > > is the simplest way to ensure that the PSF loses their appeal and the right > to the name "Python" in Europe. > > If anyone has the sort of documentary evidence which the PSF has requested, > and can scan and email them to the PSF, that will be helpful. If anyone is > willing and able to donate money to the foundation to help with the legal > expenses, estimated at tens of thousands of dollars, to challenge this > trademark application, that will also be helpful. If you have a blog, > please consider spreading the word. > > The PSF needs all the help it can get, but it needs to be the sort of help > set out here: > > > http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html > > If anyone is thinking of doing something trivially easy which anyone can > do, > such as googling "python", trust me, the PSF has already done it. The PSF > is looking for the sort of help that they can't get by typing into a search > engine. If anyone can help, that's great. If you can't help, then please > don't discourage those who can by claiming this is trivial. > I'm not offering much help here, more like wondering aloud. Doesn't Google (not to mention other software companies) have an interest staked in binding the Python name with the Python language? I can't imagine python.co.uk staging a successful campaign against one of the best-known companies in computers (that employs Python's creator, no less). FWIW, Python is becoming more and more popular in the computational life sciences field (do a search for "computational chemistry python" in scholar.google.com, for instance). It is becoming a core part of the software solutions marketed by companies that write programs for this field (e.g. Schrodinger, OpenEye, Accelrys, CCG -- I only know the North American companies). Virtually all of them ship/sell support scripts written in Python and/or provide a Python-based API into their software for easy modification. These companies pitch Python integration into their marketing schemes as a way of selling themselves as easy-to-use, highly flexible/customizable software (with support, obviously). Their biggest customers are big pharmaceutical companies, so I imagine there is a good bit of interest in that sector for defending the Python name for PSF. All the best, Jason --14dae9340bb3f821d904d5c5a1b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, F= eb 15, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve+co= mp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
Giles Coochey wrote:

[...]
>> If you have documentation of European user group= s, trade associations,
>> books, conferences, scans of job advertisements for Python program= mers,
>> software that uses some variation of "Python" in the nam= e, etc. your
>> evidence will be helpful in defeating this attempted grab of the P= ython
>> name.
>>
> Err...
>http://www.amazon.= co.uk/s/ref=3Dnb_sb_noss_1?url=3Dsearch-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=3Dpy= thon
>
> One would think that is enough.

Giles, thank you for taking the time to respond, but I'm sorry to= say that I
don't think your response is helpful. Unless you are a trademark lawyer= ,
your intuition about how trivially easy this will be is probably not going<= br> to be accurate.

You would probably think it was presumptuous for a trademark lawyer to
venture an opinion on how easy it is to write some piece of software. The same applies in reverse. We need to listen to the experts in European
trademark law, those who know what sort of evidence the European Trademark<= br> Office consider meaningful and significant. These people have told the
Python Software Foundation what needs to be done to fight this trademark application, and trust me, "spend two seconds doing a search on Amazon= " is
*not* it.

Dismissing the trademark grab as:

> Surely and open/shut case.

is the simplest way to ensure that the PSF loses their appeal and the right=
to the name "Python" in Europe.

If anyone has the sort of documentary evidence which the PSF has requested,=
and can scan and email them to the PSF, that will be helpful. If anyone is<= br> willing and able to donate money to the foundation to help with the legal expenses, estimated at tens of thousands of dollars, to challenge this
trademark application, that will also be helpful. If you have a blog,
please consider spreading the word.

The PSF needs all the help it can get, but it needs to be the sort of help<= br> set out here:

http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/pytho= n-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html

If anyone is thinking of doing something trivially easy which anyone can do= ,
such as googling "python", trust me, the PSF has already done it.= The PSF
is looking for the sort of help that they can't get by typing into a se= arch
engine. If anyone can help, that's great. If you can't help, then p= lease
don't discourage those who can by claiming this is trivial.

I'm not offering much help here, more like won= dering aloud. =A0Doesn't Google (not to mention other software companie= s) have an interest staked in binding the Python name with the Python langu= age? =A0I can't imagine python.co.uk staging a successful campaign against one of the best-known companies in = computers (that employs Python's creator, no less).

FWIW, Python is becoming more and more popular in the c= omputational life sciences field (do a search for "computational chemi= stry python" in scholar.google.c= om, for instance). =A0It is becoming a core part of the software soluti= ons marketed by companies that write programs for this field (e.g. Schrodin= ger, OpenEye, Accelrys, CCG -- I only know the North American companies). = =A0Virtually all of them ship/sell support scripts written in Python and/or= provide a Python-based API into their software for easy modification.

These companies pitch Python integration into their mar= keting schemes as a way of selling themselves as easy-to-use, highly flexib= le/customizable software (with support, obviously). =A0Their biggest custom= ers are big pharmaceutical companies, so I imagine there is a good bit of i= nterest in that sector for defending the Python name for PSF.

All the best,
Jason
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