Re: Values and objects

From	Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Values and objects
Date	2014-05-11 11:26 +0300
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<qot4n0wd8la.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi> (permalink)
References	(14 earlier) <mailman.9874.1399779013.18130.python-list@python.org> <536f069b$0$29980$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.9875.1399785752.18130.python-list@python.org> <3fb2d95e-2fb6-43a5-a725-c6d38444b80c@googlegroups.com> <87ppjksum0.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

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Marko Rauhamaa writes:
> Rustom Mody:
> 
> > On Saturday, May 10, 2014 2:39:31 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >> 
> >> Personally, I don't imagine that there ever could be a language
> >> where variables were first class values *exactly* the same as
> >> ints, strings, floats etc.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > What you mean by *exactly* the same mean, I am not sure...
> 
> Lisp variables (symbols) are on an equal footing with other objects.
> IOW, lisp variables are objects in the heap.

Only some, or only in quite old or special members of the family. But
yes, I suppose when Lisp was still LISP, it was the kind of language
that Steven fails to imagine in the quotation above. Variables really
were symbols, which still are objects that can be passed around and
stored in data structures. Or maybe not - wasn't the essential binding
component (originally an "association list", later a more abstract
"environment", called "namespace" in Python culture) separate from the
symbol even then? Global bindings aside.

But default in Common Lisp is lexical binding, and Scheme has only
lexical bindings. An ordinary lexical variable is not an object in any
reasonable sense that I can see.

(let ((f (let ((x 3)) (lambda () x))))
   ;; The binding of x is still relevant here but not in scope and not
   ;; accessible through the symbol x
   (funcall f)) ;==> 3

# That's (lambda f : f())((lambda x : (lambda : x))(3)) #=> 3
# Roughly, f = (lambda x : (lambda : x))(3) ; f()       #=> 3

Thread

Re: Pass variable by reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-06 16:31 -0400
  Re: Pass variable by reference Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-06 16:00 -0500
    Re: Pass variable by reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-06 17:27 -0400
    Re: Pass variable by reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 09:46 +1000
      Re: Pass variable by reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-06 19:18 -0700
        Re: Pass variable by reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 12:39 +1000
          Re: Pass variable by reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-06 19:54 -0700
            Re: Pass variable by reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-07 04:59 +0000
      Re: Pass variable by reference Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 13:11 -0500
        Re: Pass variable by reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 00:22 +0300
          Values and objects [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 01:08 +0000
            Re: Values and objects [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 16:56 -0500
              Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 01:34 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-10 10:24 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 01:01 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 19:19 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 12:33 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 20:05 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 23:15 -0500
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 06:15 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 17:21 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 09:09 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 19:32 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 12:10 -0700
                Re: Values and objects MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-05-10 20:22 +0100
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 12:28 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-10 16:16 -0400
                Re: Values and objects Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-10 16:24 -0400
                Re: Values and objects Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 14:03 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 03:17 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 13:30 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 05:11 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 15:22 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 22:31 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 09:21 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 23:48 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 18:10 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-05-11 11:26 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 01:48 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-05-11 15:22 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 18:46 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 22:56 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 12:51 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 07:12 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 22:42 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 06:40 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 09:18 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 03:11 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-05-11 14:46 +0100
                Re: Values and objects Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-11 14:40 -0400
                Re: Values and objects Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-05-12 00:06 +0100
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 18:28 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 07:24 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 11:59 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 07:29 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 21:46 -0700
                Re: [Python-Dev] Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 16:08 +1000
                Re: Values and objects albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-17 14:26 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 11:58 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 10:57 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-05-10 11:06 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-10 12:07 -0400
        Re: Pass variable by reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 11:31 +1000
          Re: Pass variable by reference Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 17:30 -0500
            Abstractions [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 00:58 +0000
              Re: Abstractions [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 21:17 -0500
  Re: Pass variable by reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-07 01:14 +0000

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