Re: Values and objects

Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Date	2014-05-11 01:48 -0700
References	(15 earlier) <536f069b$0$29980$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.9875.1399785752.18130.python-list@python.org> <3fb2d95e-2fb6-43a5-a725-c6d38444b80c@googlegroups.com> <87ppjksum0.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <qot4n0wd8la.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID	<455a3dc0-c492-498b-9593-d30b8a967898@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Values and objects
From	Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>

Show all headers | View raw

On Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:56:41 PM UTC+5:30, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> Marko Rauhamaa writes:
> > Rustom Mody:
> > 
> > > On Saturday, May 10, 2014 2:39:31 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> Personally, I don't imagine that there ever could be a language
> > >> where variables were first class values *exactly* the same as
> > >> ints, strings, floats etc.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > [...]
> 
> > >
> 
> > > What you mean by *exactly* the same mean, I am not sure...
> 
> > 
> 
> > Lisp variables (symbols) are on an equal footing with other objects.
> 
> > IOW, lisp variables are objects in the heap.
> 
> 
> Only some, or only in quite old or special members of the family. But
> yes, I suppose when Lisp was still LISP, it was the kind of language
> that Steven fails to imagine in the quotation above. Variables really
> were symbols, which still are objects that can be passed around and
> stored in data structures. Or maybe not - wasn't the essential binding
> component (originally an "association list", later a more abstract
> "environment", called "namespace" in Python culture) separate from the
> symbol even then? Global bindings aside.
> 

A symbol is a first-class data structure in any lisp (that I know)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity is a defining characteristic of lisp

Environments are first class in many schemes:
http://sicp.ai.mit.edu/Fall-2004/manuals/scheme-7.5.5/doc/scheme_14.html
(The '+'es there indicate its an MIT scheme extension; but its quite common)

In my understanding a symbol can be called a variable only wrt some environment

IOW there is no meaning to the word 'variable' without some notion of scope.

I am not sure what your references to old and new lisps and static vs dynamic
scope has to do with this.

Or are you saying that in the 1960s lisps, a symbol was the string (name)
along with its (dynamic binding) stack??

Python to qualify for this not only would the namespacing of
locals have to be systematic with globals, the nesting structure of environments
would have to be introspectively available as in the scheme example.

Note the functions: environment-parent and environment-bound-names

Thread

Re: Pass variable by reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-06 16:31 -0400
  Re: Pass variable by reference Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-06 16:00 -0500
    Re: Pass variable by reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-06 17:27 -0400
    Re: Pass variable by reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 09:46 +1000
      Re: Pass variable by reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-06 19:18 -0700
        Re: Pass variable by reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 12:39 +1000
          Re: Pass variable by reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-06 19:54 -0700
            Re: Pass variable by reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-07 04:59 +0000
      Re: Pass variable by reference Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 13:11 -0500
        Re: Pass variable by reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 00:22 +0300
          Values and objects [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 01:08 +0000
            Re: Values and objects [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 16:56 -0500
              Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 01:34 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-10 10:24 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 01:01 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 19:19 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 12:33 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 20:05 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 23:15 -0500
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 06:15 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 17:21 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 09:09 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 19:32 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 12:10 -0700
                Re: Values and objects MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-05-10 20:22 +0100
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 12:28 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-10 16:16 -0400
                Re: Values and objects Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-10 16:24 -0400
                Re: Values and objects Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 14:03 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 03:17 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 13:30 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 05:11 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 15:22 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 22:31 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 09:21 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 23:48 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 18:10 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-05-11 11:26 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 01:48 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-05-11 15:22 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 18:46 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 22:56 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 12:51 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 07:12 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 22:42 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 06:40 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 09:18 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 03:11 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-05-11 14:46 +0100
                Re: Values and objects Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-11 14:40 -0400
                Re: Values and objects Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-05-12 00:06 +0100
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 18:28 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 07:24 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 11:59 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 07:29 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 21:46 -0700
                Re: [Python-Dev] Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 16:08 +1000
                Re: Values and objects albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-17 14:26 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 11:58 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 10:57 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-05-10 11:06 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-10 12:07 -0400
        Re: Pass variable by reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 11:31 +1000
          Re: Pass variable by reference Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 17:30 -0500
            Abstractions [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 00:58 +0000
              Re: Abstractions [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 21:17 -0500
  Re: Pass variable by reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-07 01:14 +0000

csiph-web