Re: Pass variable by reference

From	Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com>
Subject	Re: Pass variable by reference
Date	2014-05-06 17:27 -0400
References	<235C4BFA-9770-481A-9FCF-21C3F036769C@gmail.com> <5368681D.8070602@islandtraining.com> <mailman.9710.1399408799.18130.python-list@python.org> <lkbigv$ban$1@speranza.aioe.org>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.9712.1399411654.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 5/6/14 5:00 PM, Mark H Harris wrote:
> On 5/6/14 3:31 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 5/6/14 12:42 AM, Gary Herron wrote:
>>> This gets confusing, but in fact the most accurate answer is that Python
>>> does not have "variables", so there is no such thing as passing
>>> "variables" by reference or any other method.  Python *does* have names
>>> bound to values, but that's a very different thing. If necessary, you
>>> may consider that the *values* are passed by reference.
>>
>> This meme bugs me so much.  Python has variables.  They work differently
>> than variables in C.  In fact, they work by having names bound to values.
>
> What does the word "variable" mean. Think BASIC variables. You can set
> them, you can reset them, you can delete them, you can change them.  ...
> because they are variable.

>
> Python has names bound to objects... some of which you may not change.
> Once the name is bound to an object you may bind it to another object,
> but you may not change it, nor may you change the object it is bound to
> if the object is immutable.

I quite like the definition I found on Wikipedia: "a symbolic name 
associated with a value and whose associated value may be changed."  The 
word "change" here is ambiguous: it could mean mutating an existing 
value, or rebinding to another value.  While I can't mutate immutable 
values, I can always rebind a Python name to another value.

Python cannot do "pass variable by reference", but not because it lacks 
variables.  What it lacks is the ability to refer to a variable.  Names 
cannot be referred to, so there is no way to refer to a variable.  This 
is definitely different than C.

You are right about the comparison to BASIC: BASIC's variables can 
always be mutated.  Python's variables cannot always be, because some of 
them have immutable values (or happen to at the moment, they can always 
be rebound!)

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com

Thread

Re: Pass variable by reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-06 16:31 -0400
  Re: Pass variable by reference Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-06 16:00 -0500
    Re: Pass variable by reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-06 17:27 -0400
    Re: Pass variable by reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 09:46 +1000
      Re: Pass variable by reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-06 19:18 -0700
        Re: Pass variable by reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 12:39 +1000
          Re: Pass variable by reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-06 19:54 -0700
            Re: Pass variable by reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-07 04:59 +0000
      Re: Pass variable by reference Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 13:11 -0500
        Re: Pass variable by reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 00:22 +0300
          Values and objects [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 01:08 +0000
            Re: Values and objects [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 16:56 -0500
              Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 01:34 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-10 10:24 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 01:01 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 19:19 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 12:33 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 20:05 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 23:15 -0500
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 06:15 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 17:21 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 09:09 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 19:32 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 12:10 -0700
                Re: Values and objects MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-05-10 20:22 +0100
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 12:28 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-10 16:16 -0400
                Re: Values and objects Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-10 16:24 -0400
                Re: Values and objects Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 14:03 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 03:17 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 13:30 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 05:11 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 15:22 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 22:31 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 09:21 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 23:48 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 18:10 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-05-11 11:26 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 01:48 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-05-11 15:22 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 18:46 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 22:56 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 12:51 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 07:12 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 22:42 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 06:40 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 09:18 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 03:11 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-05-11 14:46 +0100
                Re: Values and objects Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-11 14:40 -0400
                Re: Values and objects Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-05-12 00:06 +0100
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 18:28 -0700
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 07:24 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 11:59 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 07:29 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 21:46 -0700
                Re: [Python-Dev] Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 16:08 +1000
                Re: Values and objects albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-17 14:26 +0000
                Re: Values and objects Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 11:58 +1000
                Re: Values and objects Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 10:57 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-05-10 11:06 +0300
                Re: Values and objects Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-10 12:07 -0400
        Re: Pass variable by reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 11:31 +1000
          Re: Pass variable by reference Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 17:30 -0500
            Abstractions [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 00:58 +0000
              Re: Abstractions [was Re: Pass variable by reference] Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 21:17 -0500
  Re: Pass variable by reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-07 01:14 +0000

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