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Re: Reference

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From Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
Subject Re: Reference
Date Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:37:19 +1100
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Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>:
>
> > A reference-compliant implementation can contradict your inference (by
> > returning an object identity that is *not* the object's memory
> > address). Any code you've written based on that false inference will
> > break.
> >
> > The fault will be yours, for inferring an assertion that isn't implied
> > by the definition.
>
> Show me a few lines of Python that demonstrate the error of the false
> inference, please.

It need not be Python; it could be an extension library to which you
pass the ‘id(foo)’ result, on the false assumption that it must be a
memory location.

Besides which, it is *you* that declares this abstraction to be leaky.
If you're unable to show how that's the case, I rest on the null
hypothesis: your assertion is untrue.

> When I talk about an object's memory address, I'm not referring to
> what might be revealed by gdb, for example. That is, I'm not talking
> about the process's virtual address space, nor am I talking about the
> physical address on the address bus. I can simply define that the
> object's memory address is whatever id() returns.

Then this does not count as a leaky abstraction. All you're saying is
that the ‘id(foo)’ result is a representation of the object identity,
which is entirely at the level of the abstraction. Nothing is leaked.

-- 
 \      “God forbid that any book should be banned. The practice is as |
  `\                  indefensible as infanticide.” —Dame Rebecca West |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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Reference "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 10:42 +0100
  Object identity (was: Reference) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-03 21:00 +1100
    Re: Object identity (was: Reference) "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 11:21 +0100
  Re: Reference "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 05:09 -0800
  Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-03 14:29 +0000
  Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 07:52 -0800
    Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:10 +1100
    Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:24 -0600
    Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:31 +1100
    Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-03 21:35 +0000
      Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:07 +0200
        Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:18 +1100
          Re: Reference Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-03-04 11:10 +0000
            Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 11:48 +0000
              Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 00:25 +0000
    Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:51 -0600
    Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 17:02 -0500
      Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:22 +0200
        Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 09:27 +1100
        Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:33 +1100
        Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:52 +0000
          Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 16:24 +1100
            Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 01:08 +0000
              Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 21:09 -0500
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 19:36 -0800
                Re: Reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:08 -0700
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:31 -0800
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 15:32 +1100
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:47 -0800
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 05:06 +0000
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:47 -0800
                Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:01 +1000
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:10 -0800
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:22 +1100
                Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:28 +1000
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:24 +0000
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:21 +0000
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:20 +1100
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:40 -0800
                Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 12:12 -0600
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 05:33 +1100
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:19 +0000
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:23 +0200
                Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-05 20:31 +0000
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:46 +0200
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:07 +1100
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:10 +1100
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:34 +0000
                Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-05 18:00 -0500
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 03:01 +0000
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:03 -0800
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:26 +1100
                Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 17:32 +1100
                Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 08:24 -0600
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:29 +0000
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:34 +0200
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:01 +1100
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:14 +0200
                Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 08:26 +1100
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:50 +0200
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 00:35 +0000
                Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 11:50 +1100
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-06 17:46 +0000
                Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 15:33 -0600
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:37 +1100
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-06 02:52 +0200
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 12:05 +1100
                Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 12:12 +1000
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:46 +0000
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 08:23 +0200
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:33 -0800
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:40 +1100
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:35 +0000
                Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 23:45 +1100
          Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:19 -0500
            Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 15:42 +0000
              Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 03:02 +1100
                Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 11:14 -0500
              Re: Reference MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-04 17:12 +0000
            Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 08:24 -0800
          Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 02:25 +1100
          Re: Reference Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-05 14:37 +0100
      Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:59 +0000
    Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:17 +1100
      Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-03 18:02 -0500
        Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:09 +1100
        Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:38 +0000
  Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-03 13:48 -0500
    Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:45 +0000
    Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 13:55 +0100
      Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 01:06 +1100
        Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 22:53 +0100
          Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:01 +1100

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