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| From | Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> |
| Subject | Re: Reference |
| Date | Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:20:46 +1100 |
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Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes: > That python is a hll means that machine reprs are intended to be abstracted > away. 'is' fails to do that -- proof of that being the discrepancy between > is and == That's your proof? That is a non sequitur. Those two operators are *designed to be* different, to compare different things. How does the difference between ‘==’ versus ‘is’, which are designed and documented to have different behaviour, lead to your assertion of a “leaky abstraction”? You have yet to respond to this question asked several times: > > Can you explain what machine representations are leaked into Python > > by the is operator? So, what machine represenatation is leaked? I'll re-iterate that “memory location of the object” isn't a valid response. There is no necessary relation between the memory location of the object referenced by “foo” and the return value of ‘id(foo)’. The latter is useable with utter ignorance of the concept of memory location, so it is not a leaky abstraction. Note that for an abstraction to be leaky, the programmer must *be required* to have an understanding of what lies beneath the abstraction. If the values that the programmer deals with can be dealt with entirely at the level of the abstraction, and no knowledge of what's under the hood is needed, then the abstraction does not leak. > No claim even remotely to having a clue to metaphysical being that > python's 'is' implies Yes, exactly. You have no need to know what is under the hood: it is the object's identity, which is simply a property which is unique to that object among all other concurrently-existing objects. The value returned by ‘id(foo)’ and compared by ‘is’ means nothing else other than the abstraction of “object identity”. The value has to be *something*, so it may resemble other things – such as the object's memory location, or not – but that resemblance is not promised by anything, and is irrelevant to the user of the abstraction. -- \ “As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are | `\ not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer | _o__) to reality.” —Albert Einstein, 1983 | Ben Finney
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Reference "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 10:42 +0100
Object identity (was: Reference) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-03 21:00 +1100
Re: Object identity (was: Reference) "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 11:21 +0100
Re: Reference "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 05:09 -0800
Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-03 14:29 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 07:52 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:10 +1100
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:24 -0600
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:31 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-03 21:35 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:07 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:18 +1100
Re: Reference Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-03-04 11:10 +0000
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 11:48 +0000
Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 00:25 +0000
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:51 -0600
Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 17:02 -0500
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:22 +0200
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 09:27 +1100
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:33 +1100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:52 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 16:24 +1100
Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 01:08 +0000
Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 21:09 -0500
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 19:36 -0800
Re: Reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:08 -0700
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:31 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 15:32 +1100
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:47 -0800
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 05:06 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:47 -0800
Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:01 +1000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:10 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:22 +1100
Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:28 +1000
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:24 +0000
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:21 +0000
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:20 +1100
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:40 -0800
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 12:12 -0600
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 05:33 +1100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:19 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:23 +0200
Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-05 20:31 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:46 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:07 +1100
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:10 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:34 +0000
Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-05 18:00 -0500
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 03:01 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:03 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:26 +1100
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 17:32 +1100
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 08:24 -0600
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:29 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:34 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:01 +1100
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:14 +0200
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 08:26 +1100
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:50 +0200
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 00:35 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 11:50 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-06 17:46 +0000
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 15:33 -0600
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:37 +1100
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-06 02:52 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 12:05 +1100
Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 12:12 +1000
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:46 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 08:23 +0200
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:33 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:40 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:35 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 23:45 +1100
Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:19 -0500
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 15:42 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 03:02 +1100
Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 11:14 -0500
Re: Reference MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-04 17:12 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 08:24 -0800
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 02:25 +1100
Re: Reference Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-05 14:37 +0100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:59 +0000
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:17 +1100
Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-03 18:02 -0500
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:09 +1100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:38 +0000
Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-03 13:48 -0500
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:45 +0000
Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 13:55 +0100
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 01:06 +1100
Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 22:53 +0100
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:01 +1100
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