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Re: allow line break at operators

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Date Thu, 11 Aug 2011 15:43:39 -0700
From Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
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To Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net>
Subject Re: allow line break at operators
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Seebs wrote:
>> We're fully aware of the tradeoffs of significant indentation.
> 
> You are.  A couple of other people I've talked to are.  Many others
> are not.

The times that whitespace indentation has bitten me, it was still not 
difficult to fix -- I just had to look and see which line(s) 
should/should not be where they were.


>> Because people simply don't like it when their code's indentation doesn't
>> match the actual semantics, people usually manually ensure that the two
>> match, braces or no braces. Editors still have commands to indent and
>> outdent blocks of code. There is no difference between (say) C or Pascal
>> and Python in that regard.
> 
> Yes, there very much is.
> 
> You can't outdent "a block" in Python unless it is already correctly
> indented.

I fix the block, then move it as I need to.


> The underlying thing I've noticed is:
> 
> Braces have problems more often, but the problems are *always* 100%
> machine-fixable and therefore trivial.  It takes milliseconds to get
> a program fixed so it looks like what it means.

Not so.  If the braces do not match /intent/ (which is the problem I 
care most about) then it cannot be fixed by machine.

> Indentation has problems less often, but the problems are *never*
> machine-fixable.  It takes minutes or hours to figure out what was
> supposed to be there.

I can see where a messed-up mail server could cause hours of grief.  Not 
having experienced that, but only cases where I, myself, accidently 
changed indentation when I should have, it's not been a big deal to fix; 
I'm willing to live with not having the machine reformat my source code 
from incorrect to correct.

...

> Well, seriously.  If I could, I would.  If it were up to me, I'd talk to the
> people who'd picked Python for some stuff I have to work for, point out the
> hostility of the Python community to newcomers whose workflows don't happen
> to have been preemptively built entirely around Python's design decisions,
> and suggest that maybe we use another language.  Heck, since I've been
> encouraged so much to do so, I think I will.

Your choice, obviously -- seems a shame to me, though, to give up on 
Python because of one or two ouchy areas on c.l.py.  By and large it's a 
very helpful and courteous community.

~Ethan~

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Thread

Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-09 23:05 -0700
  Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-10 18:32 +1000
    Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 09:39 +0100
    Re: allow line break at operators Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2011-08-10 09:56 +0000
      Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 00:44 +1000
    Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 11:26 +0100
      Re: allow line break at operators Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-08-10 12:25 +0000
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 13:42 +0100
        Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-10 05:58 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 15:45 +0100
        Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-10 06:19 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 16:56 +0100
          Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-10 17:55 +0000
            Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-11 07:51 +1000
              Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 23:42 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-08-11 14:40 +0000
              Re: Python & Sullivan Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-10 18:26 -0500
                Re: Python & Sullivan Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-11 10:57 +1000
              Re: Python & Sullivan Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 00:54 +0100
              Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 04:59 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-11 15:56 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 21:19 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 00:58 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-12 11:40 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 08:09 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-08-12 12:57 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2011-08-12 14:54 +0200
                Re: allow line break at operators Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-08-14 22:22 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-12 18:59 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-12 20:40 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-12 21:16 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 16:33 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 22:29 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 22:40 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 21:19 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 21:19 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-11 15:43 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 06:34 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 08:20 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 08:33 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 20:52 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 16:33 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-12 20:39 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-12 10:03 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 18:37 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 16:33 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 21:01 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 21:06 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 08:26 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 16:33 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 10:57 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 21:09 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 21:06 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-13 08:39 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 23:50 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-13 09:19 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-12 18:53 -0500
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-13 00:39 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-13 10:57 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-13 02:34 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 18:50 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 19:07 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 18:59 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-14 17:10 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-14 08:07 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-14 19:25 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 00:26 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-14 11:35 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 03:24 +1000
                Re: Re: allow line break at operators Dave Angel <davea@ieee.org> - 2011-08-14 17:46 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-14 18:46 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 00:02 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-14 16:39 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 03:26 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-14 19:01 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 11:54 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-14 19:10 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-15 04:28 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-15 06:40 -0500
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 23:30 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-15 16:32 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 21:13 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 21:37 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 23:49 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 11:56 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-15 04:28 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-15 03:31 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 14:21 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 09:27 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-14 09:34 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-14 19:27 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-14 03:51 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-14 12:59 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2011-08-14 12:46 +0300
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-14 19:01 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-14 19:01 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-14 01:44 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2011-08-16 07:04 +0300
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 19:18 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-08-13 13:19 +1200
                Re: allow line break at operators Johann Hibschman <jhibschman+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 08:27 -0500
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-15 09:41 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 15:16 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-15 20:34 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 01:37 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-16 00:28 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 15:42 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-15 20:30 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 00:39 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-08-16 12:43 +1200
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-15 16:32 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-12 13:35 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 21:06 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-13 08:03 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 22:14 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-13 08:36 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-12 20:15 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-13 00:44 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 18:25 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-13 08:12 +1000
                RE: allow line break at operators "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2011-08-16 15:51 -0400
                RE: allow line break at operators "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2011-08-16 15:26 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 20:19 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 21:05 +0100
            Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 10:32 +1000
              Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 01:47 +0100
              Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 04:59 +0000
        Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-10 19:52 -0700
          Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 14:18 +1000
            Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-11 00:50 -0700
            Re: allow line break at operators Vito 'ZeD' De Tullio <zak.mc.kraken@libero.it> - 2011-08-11 12:21 +0200
        Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-10 19:58 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-10 21:16 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-10 22:07 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 09:24 +0100
        Re: allow line break at operators MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-08-11 14:03 +0100
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Matt Joiner <anacrolix@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 00:28 +1000
          Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-12 12:32 +1000
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Jakob Bowyer <jkbbwr@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 16:42 +0100
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Daniel Greenfeld <pydanny@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 10:04 -0700
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Paul Colomiets <paul@colomiets.name> - 2011-08-11 22:17 +0300
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 17:06 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 17:29 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Jim Jewett <jimjjewett@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 17:39 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 18:29 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Matt Joiner <anacrolix@gmail.com> - 2011-09-02 15:33 +1000
          Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-09-03 12:59 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> - 2011-09-02 16:28 +0900
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> - 2011-09-02 12:30 -0700
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> - 2011-09-03 13:38 +0900
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> - 2011-09-03 15:10 +0900
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-09-03 15:01 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators ron3200 <ron3200@gmail.com> - 2011-09-04 10:22 -0500
          Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-09-04 11:08 -0700
      Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 00:37 +1000
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 16:13 +0100
        Re: allow line break at operators Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 09:16 -0600
          Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 09:32 +1000
            Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 00:55 +0100

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