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Re: allow line break at operators

From Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Subject Re: allow line break at operators
References (10 earlier) <slrnj45e7s.14vk.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net> <87fwl9hr4r.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <slrnj46o4a.1rv9.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net> <87obzwh4o0.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <slrnj48hjg.b8.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net>
Date 2011-08-12 18:59 +1000
Message-ID <87ipq3gg3m.fsf@benfinney.id.au> (permalink)
Organization Unlimited download news at news.astraweb.com

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Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> writes:

> On 2011-08-11, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> > You're welcome to attempt to demonstrate the superiority of some
> > other Python-with-braces, but it will (a) be un-Pythonic, and (b) be
> > unlikely to gain the efforts of people who don't think what you're
> > addressing is a problem.
>
> I am pretty sure Python is a pretty nice language. However, the
> indentation thing has screwed me a few times. Furthermore, I know
> people who like Python a great deal and acknowledge, without much
> difficulty, that the indentation thing has caused problems or
> incompatibilities for them.

Yes. It's caused problems for me too, so I'm not going to deny that.

This is different from saying “indentation as block structure” is a
problem; that statement is what I disagree with, and what I think most
respondents who disagree with you are objecting to.

> So when I see people deny that it is at all a problem, or that there
> are any possible shortcomings to it, I infer that they have some
> compelling reason to deny the existence of a thing which is reliably
> and easily observed.

I don't see anyone making the denials you're referring to there. If I
did, you would have my support in considering those denials mistaken.

Likewise, “end of line as end of statement” has caused me and many
others problems. I'd go so far as to say that any Python programmer for
whom that's not true has not done any significant Python programming.
That doesn't make “end of line as end of statement” a problem.

If a language feature is beneficial in far greater proportion to the
inconveniences of that feature, I'd say that feature *is not a problem*
for users of that language.

In Python, I maintain that's the case for “end of line as end of
statement”, and for “indentation as block structure”.

-- 
 \       “A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me |
  `\                                     at kick boxing.” —Emo Philips |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-09 23:05 -0700
  Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-10 18:32 +1000
    Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 09:39 +0100
    Re: allow line break at operators Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2011-08-10 09:56 +0000
      Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 00:44 +1000
    Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 11:26 +0100
      Re: allow line break at operators Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-08-10 12:25 +0000
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 13:42 +0100
        Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-10 05:58 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 15:45 +0100
        Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-10 06:19 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 16:56 +0100
          Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-10 17:55 +0000
            Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-11 07:51 +1000
              Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 23:42 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-08-11 14:40 +0000
              Re: Python & Sullivan Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-10 18:26 -0500
                Re: Python & Sullivan Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-11 10:57 +1000
              Re: Python & Sullivan Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 00:54 +0100
              Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 04:59 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-11 15:56 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 21:19 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 00:58 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-12 11:40 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 08:09 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-08-12 12:57 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2011-08-12 14:54 +0200
                Re: allow line break at operators Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-08-14 22:22 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-12 18:59 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-12 20:40 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-12 21:16 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 16:33 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 22:29 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 22:40 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 21:19 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 21:19 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-11 15:43 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 06:34 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 08:20 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 08:33 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 20:52 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 16:33 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-12 20:39 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-12 10:03 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 18:37 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 16:33 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 21:01 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 21:06 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 08:26 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 16:33 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 10:57 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 21:09 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 21:06 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-13 08:39 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 23:50 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-13 09:19 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-12 18:53 -0500
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-13 00:39 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-13 10:57 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-13 02:34 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 18:50 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 19:07 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 18:59 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-14 17:10 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-14 08:07 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-14 19:25 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 00:26 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-14 11:35 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 03:24 +1000
                Re: Re: allow line break at operators Dave Angel <davea@ieee.org> - 2011-08-14 17:46 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-14 18:46 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 00:02 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-14 16:39 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 03:26 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-14 19:01 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 11:54 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-14 19:10 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-15 04:28 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-15 06:40 -0500
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-15 23:30 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-15 16:32 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 21:13 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 21:37 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 23:49 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 11:56 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-15 04:28 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-15 03:31 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 14:21 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 09:27 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-14 09:34 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-14 19:27 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-14 03:51 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-14 12:59 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2011-08-14 12:46 +0300
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-14 19:01 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-14 19:01 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-14 01:44 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2011-08-16 07:04 +0300
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 19:18 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-08-13 13:19 +1200
                Re: allow line break at operators Johann Hibschman <jhibschman+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 08:27 -0500
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-15 09:41 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 15:16 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-15 20:34 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 01:37 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-16 00:28 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 15:42 +0100
                Re: allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-08-15 20:30 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 00:39 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-08-16 12:43 +1200
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-15 16:32 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-12 13:35 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 21:06 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-13 08:03 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-12 22:14 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-13 08:36 +1000
                Re: allow line break at operators Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-12 20:15 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-13 00:44 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-13 18:25 -0700
                Re: allow line break at operators Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-13 08:12 +1000
                RE: allow line break at operators "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2011-08-16 15:51 -0400
                RE: allow line break at operators "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2011-08-16 15:26 -0400
                Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 20:19 +0000
                Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 21:05 +0100
            Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 10:32 +1000
              Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 01:47 +0100
              Re: allow line break at operators Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-11 04:59 +0000
        Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-10 19:52 -0700
          Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 14:18 +1000
            Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-11 00:50 -0700
            Re: allow line break at operators Vito 'ZeD' De Tullio <zak.mc.kraken@libero.it> - 2011-08-11 12:21 +0200
        Re: allow line break at operators Yingjie Lan <lanyjie@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-10 19:58 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-10 21:16 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-08-10 22:07 -0700
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 09:24 +0100
        Re: allow line break at operators MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-08-11 14:03 +0100
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Matt Joiner <anacrolix@gmail.com> - 2011-08-12 00:28 +1000
          Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-12 12:32 +1000
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Jakob Bowyer <jkbbwr@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 16:42 +0100
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Daniel Greenfeld <pydanny@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 10:04 -0700
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Paul Colomiets <paul@colomiets.name> - 2011-08-11 22:17 +0300
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 17:06 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 17:29 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Jim Jewett <jimjjewett@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 17:39 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 18:29 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Matt Joiner <anacrolix@gmail.com> - 2011-09-02 15:33 +1000
          Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-09-03 12:59 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> - 2011-09-02 16:28 +0900
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> - 2011-09-02 12:30 -0700
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> - 2011-09-03 13:38 +0900
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> - 2011-09-03 15:10 +0900
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-09-03 15:01 -0400
        Re: [Python-ideas] allow line break at operators ron3200 <ron3200@gmail.com> - 2011-09-04 10:22 -0500
          Re: allow line break at operators rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-09-04 11:08 -0700
      Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 00:37 +1000
        Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 16:13 +0100
        Re: allow line break at operators Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-08-10 09:16 -0600
          Re: allow line break at operators Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-11 09:32 +1000
            Re: allow line break at operators Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-11 00:55 +0100

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