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simplicity / complexity

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From Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.misc
Subject simplicity / complexity
Date Tue, 26 Aug 2025 18:42:05 +0000
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>>>>> On 2025-08-19, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>>>> On 19.08.2025 01:45, Andy Walker wrote:

 >>>> If you're worried about 15%, that will be more than compensated
 >>>> for by your next computer!

 >>> Actually I'm very conservative concerning computers; mine is 15+
 >>> years old, and although I "recently" thought about getting an
 >>> update here it's not my priority. ;-)

 >> Ah.  I thought I was bad, keeping computers 10 years or so!  I got
 >> a new one a couple of years back, and the difference in speed and
 >> storage was just ridiculous.

	Reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-waste , I'm inclined to
	think that keeping computers for a decade might be not so bad
	a thing after all.

 > Well, used software tools (and their updates) required me to at
 > least upgrade memory!  (That's actually one point that annoys me
 > in "modern" software development; rarely anyone seems to care
 > economizing resource requirements.)

	I doubt it's so much lack of care as it is simply being not a
	priority.  Still, all the more reason to direct attention to
	the cases where such care /is/ given.  Thankfully, the problem
	/is/ a known one (say, [1]), and IME, there still /are/ lean
	programs to choose from.

	By the by, I've been looking for "simple" self-hosting compilers
	recently - something with source that a semi-dedicated person
	can read through in reasonable time.  What I've found so far is
	Pygmy Forth (naturally, I guess) and the T3X family of languages
	[2].  Are there perhaps other such compilers worthy of mention?

[1] http://spectrum.ieee.org/lean-software-development
[2] http://pygmy.utoh.org/pygmyforth.html
[3] http://t3x.org/t3x/

	I'll also try to address here specific points raised elsewhere
	in this thread, particularly news:1087qgv$14ret$1@dont-email.me .

	First, the 4e7 lines of Linux code is somewhat unfair a measure.
	On my system, less than 5% of individual modules built from the
	Linux source are loaded right now:

$ lsmod | wc -l 
175
$ find /lib/modules/6.1.0-37-amd64/ -xdev -type f -name \*.ko | wc -l 
4024
$ 

	That value would of course vary from system to system, but I'd
	think it's safe to say that in at least 90% of all deployments,
	less than 10% of Linux code will be loaded at any given time.

	For those who are looking for a system with more "comprehensible"
	sources, I would recommend NetBSD.  And if anything, I personally
	find its list of supported platforms, http://netbsd.org/ports/ ,
	fairly impressive.

	Don't get me wrong: NetBSD won't fit for every use case Linux-based
	systems cover - the complexity of the Linux kernel isn't there
	for nothing - but just in case you /can/ live with a "limited"
	OS (say, one that doesn't support Docker), thanks to NetBSD, you
	/do/ have that option.

	With regards to applications, while binary distributions tend to
	opt to have the most "fully functional" built of any given
	package - from whence come lots of dependencies - a source-based
	one allows /you/ to choose what you need.  And pkgsrc for NetBSD
	is such a distribution.  Gentoo is a Linux-based distribution
	along the same lines.

	As to websites and JS libraries, for the past 25 years I've been
	using as my primary one a browser, Lynx, that never had support
	for JS, and likely never will have.  IME, an /awful lot/ of
	websites are usable and useful entirely without JS.  For those
	interested, I've recently made several comments in defense of
	"JS-free" web and web browsers, such as [4, 5, 6].

[4] news:ID351XcOrll9pkb7@violet.siamics.net
[5] news:6brTAD5tWnddeHXd@violet.siamics.net
[6] news:ii6tqUtTe0Vi-Fnh@violet.siamics.net

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Thread

Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-18 04:52 +0200
  Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-18 16:54 +0100
    Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-18 18:30 +0200
      Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-19 00:45 +0100
        Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-19 02:44 +0200
          Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-20 00:47 +0100
            Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-20 00:43 +0000
              Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-20 23:58 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-21 02:59 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-23 00:42 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-23 02:29 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-23 02:36 +0000
                Economizing resource requirements (was Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures?) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-21 21:02 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-04 01:11 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-04 03:37 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-07 22:03 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-07 22:04 +0000
                Various digressions (was Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures?) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-08 01:27 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-10 01:11 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-10 01:39 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-11 12:47 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-08 17:04 +0000
          simplicity / complexity Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-26 18:42 +0000
            Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-27 00:28 +0000
              Re: simplicity / complexity Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-30 19:10 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-30 22:43 +0000
                [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-09-04 18:50 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-05 00:03 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-09-07 15:55 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-07 21:17 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-09-05 12:02 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-09-07 16:30 +0000
            Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-27 07:53 +0200
              Re: simplicity / complexity Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-30 19:39 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-30 22:45 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-31 13:35 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-31 22:40 +0000
                [OT] free software Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-09-04 18:25 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-08 14:03 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-08 16:21 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-10-08 08:08 -0700
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-08 21:18 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-10-08 14:31 -0700
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-09 00:09 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-10-09 08:44 -0700
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-09 21:52 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-10-09 15:21 -0700
                Re: simplicity / complexity antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 00:34 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-09 03:48 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-08 14:53 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-08 15:24 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 01:39 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-09 04:00 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 14:19 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-09 14:48 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-10 12:36 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-10 12:09 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 08:32 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 08:34 +0200

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