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Re: simplicity / complexity

From Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.misc
Subject Re: simplicity / complexity
Date 2025-08-30 19:39 +0000
Organization Dbus-free station.
Message-ID <gl4a18y3Ssi0BNk0@violet.siamics.net> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <107vkg0$36qlh$1@dont-email.me> <1080dts$2u7bm$2@dont-email.me> <1080hed$3f6hn$1@dont-email.me> <y2C3FavstjxdDZ-_@violet.siamics.net> <108m6ft$fkhm$1@dont-email.me>

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>>>>> On 2025-08-27, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>>>> On 26.08.2025 20:42, Ivan Shmakov wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-08-19, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

 >>> Well, used software tools (and their updates) required me to at
 >>> least upgrade memory!  (That's actually one point that annoys me
 >>> in "modern" software development; rarely anyone seems to care
 >>> economizing resource requirements.)

 >> I doubt it's so much lack of care as it is simply being not a
 >> priority.

 > But those are depending each other.

	I guess I should've expressed myself better: engineering is
	all about trade-offs, and there're often other things to care
	about once the program runs "fast enough" on the hardware that
	the customers are /assumed/ to have.

	Not to mention that taking too long to 'polish' your product,
	you risk ending up lagging behind your competitors.

	I could only hope that environmental concerns will eventually
	make resource usage a more important issue for code writers.

 > And, to be yet more clear; I also think it's [widely] just ignorance!
 > (The mere existence of the article you quoted below is per se already a
 > strong sign for that.  But also other experiences, like talks with many
 > IT-folks of various age and background reinforced my opinion on that.)

	I suppose it might be the case of people involved with computers
	professionally not seeing much point in acquiring the skills that
	aren't in demand by employers.

 > (Privately I had later written HTML/JS to create applications (with
 > dynamic content) since otherwise that would not have been possible;
 > I had no own server with some application servers available.  But I
 > didn't use any frameworks or external libraries.  Already bad enough.)

	I can't say I'm a big fan of JS or ES, yet there're certainly
	languages I like even less.  FWIW, I prefer to stick to ES 5.1,
	http://262.ecma-international.org/5.1/ specifically, as then I
	can use http://duktape.org/ or http://mujs.com/ to test the
	bulk of my code, rather than running it in Chromium or Firefox.

	Like I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not the language, or even
	its use to create web applications, that irks me: it's that
	often enough when I want some data, what I get instead is some
	application that I /must/ use to access that same data - in a
	manner predefined by its developer (say, one record at a time),
	and not particularly conductive to the task /I/ have at hand.

	As to frameworks, my /impression/ is that it makes sense to
	familiarize oneself with them only when there're actually
	/lots/ of similar programming problems that need to be solved,
	particularly when writing code as part of a team.  As it never
	was the case for me personally, I've never seen much sense in
	investing effort into learning any framework, JS or otherwise.

 > But even with Browsers and JS activated with my old Firefox I cannot
 > use or read many websites nowadays; because they demand newer browser
 > versions.

	"Demand" how?

	Server-side code can of course make arbitrary decisions based
	on the User-Agent: string, but that's a poor practice in general,
	and typically such restrictions can be bypassed by reading the
	archived copy of the webpage from http://web.archive.org/ .

	Also works when it's not a browser but /TLS/ version issue.

	Alternatively, associated JS code can test browser's capabilities,
	but that can be circumvented by disabling JS altogether.

	Also to mention is that many websites these days rely on some
	sort of "DDoS protection service" external to them.  (I run my
	own servers, so I /do/ know some of the pain of mitigating heaps
	of junk requests originating from botnets - mainly compromised
	"wireless routers" I believe.)

	Such services employ captchas, and those in turn require JS,
	and might require recent browser versions as well.  If that's
	the case, http://web.archive.org/ might or might not help.

	Other than using Wayback Machine, I believe there's no easy
	solution to this problem: should the operator disable "protection
	service," they risk the site becoming bogged down by junk requests
	and no longer available to legitimate users.  Conversely, by
	employing such a service, they inconvenience their users, for
	even those who /do/ run modern browsers, will presumably have
	better things to do than solving captchas.

	So, personally, when encountering such behavior, I try Wayback
	Machine first.  If it doesn't get me a version of the webpage
	as recent as I need, I consider contacting the website operator
	so that they might check and possibly tweak their "protection"
	settings to allow archival.  If they can't, or won't, fix it,
	well, as mTCP HTTPSERV.EXE puts it, "countless more exist."

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Thread

Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-18 04:52 +0200
  Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-18 16:54 +0100
    Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-18 18:30 +0200
      Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-19 00:45 +0100
        Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-19 02:44 +0200
          Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-20 00:47 +0100
            Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-20 00:43 +0000
              Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-20 23:58 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-21 02:59 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-23 00:42 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-23 02:29 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-23 02:36 +0000
                Economizing resource requirements (was Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures?) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-21 21:02 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-04 01:11 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-04 03:37 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-07 22:03 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-07 22:04 +0000
                Various digressions (was Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures?) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-08 01:27 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-10 01:11 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-10 01:39 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-11 12:47 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - opinions on local procedures? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-08 17:04 +0000
          simplicity / complexity Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-26 18:42 +0000
            Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-27 00:28 +0000
              Re: simplicity / complexity Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-30 19:10 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-30 22:43 +0000
                [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-09-04 18:50 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-05 00:03 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-09-07 15:55 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-07 21:17 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-09-05 12:02 +0000
                Re: [OT] NetBSD vs. Linux(-based systems) Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-09-07 16:30 +0000
            Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-27 07:53 +0200
              Re: simplicity / complexity Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-30 19:39 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-30 22:45 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-31 13:35 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-31 22:40 +0000
                [OT] free software Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-09-04 18:25 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-08 14:03 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-08 16:21 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-10-08 08:08 -0700
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-08 21:18 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-10-08 14:31 -0700
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-09 00:09 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-10-09 08:44 -0700
                Re: simplicity / complexity Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-09 21:52 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-10-09 15:21 -0700
                Re: simplicity / complexity antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 00:34 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-09 03:48 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-08 14:53 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-08 15:24 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 01:39 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-09 04:00 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 14:19 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-09 14:48 +0000
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-10 12:36 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-10 12:09 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 08:32 +0200
                Re: simplicity / complexity Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 08:34 +0200

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