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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #8765 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2011-10-13 10:44 -0700 |
| Last post | 2011-10-16 22:14 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 75 — 14 participants |
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Ubunto Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-10-13 10:44 -0700
Re: Ubunto Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-13 22:27 +0200
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-14 01:08 +0000
Re: Ubunto Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-14 14:21 +0100
Re: Ubunto B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-10-14 17:00 -0400
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-14 22:20 +0000
Re: Ubunto B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-10-15 01:16 -0400
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-15 12:21 +0000
Re: Ubunto B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-10-15 15:42 -0400
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-16 00:23 +0000
Re: Ubuntu Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-10-15 13:01 -0700
Re: Ubuntu Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-10-15 16:49 -0400
Re: Ubuntu Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-16 00:57 +0000
Re: Ubuntu Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-17 00:51 +0100
Re: Ubuntu Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-10-16 22:12 -0400
Re: Ubuntu Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-17 21:21 +0000
Re: Ubuntu blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-18 14:50 +0000
Re: Ubuntu Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-10-18 08:59 -0700
Re: Ubuntu Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-18 18:19 +0200
Re: Ubuntu blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-18 17:43 +0000
Re: Ubuntu Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-18 22:18 +0200
Re: Ubuntu blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-19 13:26 +0000
Re: Ubuntu Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-19 00:18 +0000
Re: Ubuntu blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-19 13:27 +0000
Re: Ubuntu Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-19 19:39 +0000
Re: Ubuntu blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-20 14:15 +0000
Re: Ubuntu David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2011-10-20 12:24 -0400
Re: Ubuntu Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-20 20:53 +0100
Re: Ubuntu blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 16:24 +0000
Re: Ubuntu Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-22 20:38 +0100
Re: Ubuntu blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 07:03 +0000
Re: Ubuntu Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 23:23 -0700
Re: Ubuntu blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 16:24 +0000
Java 7 javadocs (was Re: Ubuntu) blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-20 14:16 +0000
Re: Java 7 javadocs (was Re: Ubuntu) David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2011-10-20 12:27 -0400
Re: Java 7 javadocs (was Re: Ubuntu) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-06 15:44 -0500
Re: Ubuntu Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-20 20:53 +0100
Re: Ubuntu Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-20 17:05 -0700
Re: Ubuntu Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-17 00:32 +0100
Re: Ubunto Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-15 15:06 +0100
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-15 15:59 +0000
Re: Ubunto Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-15 17:15 +0100
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-15 16:48 +0000
Re: Ubunto B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-10-15 15:45 -0400
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-16 00:17 +0000
Re: Ubunto Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-16 23:40 +0100
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-16 23:50 +0000
Re: Ubunto B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-10-15 15:46 -0400
Re: Ubunto Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-16 23:44 +0100
Re: Ubunto B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-10-16 20:41 -0400
Re: Ubunto Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-10-16 17:48 -0700
Re: Ubunto B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-10-16 20:59 -0400
Re: Ubunto Stanimir Stamenkov <s7an10@netscape.net> - 2011-10-16 11:39 +0300
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-16 11:22 +0000
Re: Ubunto Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-10-16 10:58 -0300
Re: Ubunto Dancing Fingers <batymahn@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 01:51 -0700
Re: Ubunto Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-10-13 22:54 -0400
Re: Ubunto Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-14 14:20 +0100
Re: Ubunto Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-10-15 13:04 -0700
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-16 01:03 +0000
Re: Ubunto Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-17 00:31 +0100
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-17 00:29 +0000
Re: Ubunto Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-10-16 22:03 -0400
Re: Ubunto Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-17 15:08 +0100
Re: Ubunto Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-06 15:49 -0500
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-17 21:29 +0000
Re: Ubunto Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-06 15:47 -0500
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-11-06 22:49 +0000
Re: Ubunto Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-06 17:13 -0800
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-11-07 23:49 +0000
Re: Ubunto markspace <-@.> - 2011-11-07 21:07 -0800
Re: Ubunto Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-17 16:47 +0100
Re: Ubunto B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> - 2011-10-16 20:55 -0400
Re: Ubunto Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-17 21:37 +0000
Re: Ubunto Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-10-16 22:14 -0400
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| From | Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-13 10:44 -0700 |
| Subject | Ubunto |
| Message-ID | <op8e97ptf2knv5f325qb2vrkb6sph1nfh0@4ax.com> |
There is a new release of Ubuntu Linux. Is there anything Java programmers should know? -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com It should not be considered an error when the user starts something already started or stops something already stopped. This applies to browsers, services, editors... It is inexcusable to punish the user by requiring some elaborate sequence to atone, e.g. open the task editor, find and kill some processes.
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| From | Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-13 22:27 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <9fovtmF8gaU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #8765 |
On 13.10.2011 19:44, Roedy Green wrote: > There is a new release of Ubuntu Linux. > Is there anything Java programmers should know? Not that I am aware of - unless you consider Gnome 2 mandatory for Java development. I haven't worked with Gnome 3 yet and will certainly install it in a VM before going life. :-) Cheers robert -- remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-14 01:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <j78233$v7l$2@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #8767 |
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:27:29 +0200, Robert Klemme wrote:
> On 13.10.2011 19:44, Roedy Green wrote:
>> There is a new release of Ubuntu Linux.
>> Is there anything Java programmers should know?
>
> Not that I am aware of - unless you consider Gnome 2 mandatory for Java
> development. I haven't worked with Gnome 3 yet and will certainly
> install it in a VM before going life. :-)
>
I've been using Gnome 3 (in Fedora 15) for the last couple of weeks. It
is reasonably stable, but has so many rough edges and unfortunate design
decisions that I consider it to be worse that any Gnome version I've used
to date - and I've been using Gnome since Redhat 7, i.e. pre Fedora.
This is unfortunate, especially as the F15 switch from the old System V
init service management system to systemd is a very good move: F15 with
even the disimproved F14 version of Gnome 2 would have been a genuine
step forward.
Gnome 3.2 is due with F16 but the omens aren't good: the release beta
release notes witter on about:
- reinstating icons for removable drives
(well duh - omitting them from G3 was a truly braindead decision)
- reinstating the G2 virtual desktop switching menu bar switcher
(duh again - swapping from a single mouse click to
'hit the Windows key', type at least the first three letters of the
app name, hit RETURN is an improvement????)
- adding a built-in IM feature instead of fixing the awful launcher
builder (you can create, delete, but NOT edit a launcher definition)
- no recognition that the combo of keystrokes and mouse clicks G3 needs
to do anything is slower than the equivalent G2 sequences or that this
needs fixing.
- aparently no fix for the utterly infuriating way that putting the mouse
cursor anywhere near the top left screen corned drops you out of the
desktop and into the Activity page, where another keystroke or mouse
click is needed to get back to the desktop. What makes this much worse
is the G3 habit of starting new apps with their window at top left on
the screen, almost guaranteeing that the first time you try to use the
File or Edit drop-down menus you'll end up, swearing loudly, in the
bloody Activities page for the nth time.
Arrrgh!
If you don't mind using XFCE I'd strongly suggest you follow Linus'
advice and use that instead of G3.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
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| From | Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-14 14:21 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110141420500.15658@urchin.earth.li> |
| In reply to | #8767 |
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Robert Klemme wrote: > On 13.10.2011 19:44, Roedy Green wrote: > >> There is a new release of Ubuntu Linux. Is there anything Java >> programmers should know? > > Not that I am aware of - unless you consider Gnome 2 mandatory for Java > development. I haven't worked with Gnome 3 yet and will certainly > install it in a VM before going life. :-) It's utterly vile. We got GNOME 3 with Fedora 15, and switched over to XFCE after about five minutes. XFCE is quite a step down from GNOME 2, but it's miles better than GNOME 3. I am counting my blessings that i recently bought a Mac! tom -- Programming is a skill best acquired by practice and example rather than from books -- Alan Turing
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| From | B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-14 17:00 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <j7a7tn$t21$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #8787 |
On 14/10/2011 9:21 AM, Tom Anderson wrote: > It's utterly vile. We got GNOME 3 with Fedora 15, and switched over to > XFCE after about five minutes. > > XFCE is quite a step down from GNOME 2, but it's miles better than GNOME > 3. I am counting my blessings that i recently bought a Mac! What is wrong with GNOME 3? And if you prefer GNOME 2 to both GNOME 3 and XFCE, why not just use GNOME 2? -- A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0028:C0011E36 in VXD VMM(01) 00010E36. The current application will be terminated. * Press any key to terminate the current application.
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-14 22:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <j7ack9$j96$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #8803 |
On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:00:40 -0400, B1ll Gat3s wrote: > On 14/10/2011 9:21 AM, Tom Anderson wrote: >> It's utterly vile. We got GNOME 3 with Fedora 15, and switched over to >> XFCE after about five minutes. >> >> XFCE is quite a step down from GNOME 2, but it's miles better than >> GNOME 3. I am counting my blessings that i recently bought a Mac! > > What is wrong with GNOME 3? > Try it: you'll soon see. Here's an example of half-baked thinking. I quite like the idea of being able to start apps and switch between them them without needing to touch the mouse. The first part works OK: [Windows]evo[newline][Windows] puts me in Evolution provided that there's only one Evolution window open. though its *much* slower than clicking the appropriate button in the G2 virtual screen switcher, *but* its broken if several windows are open for the application you want to select because there are no keystrokes defined that select or tab round the several windows shown on the Activity page. Yes, you can hit [Windows] and get back to the screen holding all these windows, but that's no use if the window you want is hidden entirely under another on the virtual screen. The only way to get to it is the hit [Windows] and double click the window you want. As I said: not properly thought out. But the worst bit is that as well as clicking 'Activities' in the top left corner to get to the activity page, where you select the app you want to run or give focus to by typing the first few letters of its name or clicking an icon of image of a window, you can also get there by gesturing at the top left of the screen with the mouse. All well and good, but for two points: - very many apps (e.g. Gedit, Nautilus) open by default in the top left of the screen *and* they all open smack on top of each other. There seems to be no way to change this default position or even to make them cascade a la Windows. - as you do other things this sensitive area tends to grow as time passes and to overlap application windows including the one that has focus. It gets bloody big too - something like a quarter circle with its centroid in the top left corned and a raduis of half the screen height. The upshot of this that after typing for a bit, if you go to click on 'File' or 'Edit' and the application window is even closeish to the top left corner, you find yourself dumped unceremoniously into the Activity page. This is extremely irritating. If you're left handed (I am) and swat to mouse to one side to get its cursor away from where you're typing, very frequently it enters this magic area and again you end up dumped into the Activity page. Try it: you'll soon see what a pigs ear the Gnome UI has become. > And if you prefer GNOME 2 to both GNOME 3 and XFCE, why not just > use GNOME 2? Because G2 been removed from the latest Ubuntu release and AFAIK the same will happen with the release of Fedora 16. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-15 01:16 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <j7b500$51f$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #8808 |
On 14/10/2011 6:20 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote: > On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:00:40 -0400, B1ll Gat3s wrote: > >> On 14/10/2011 9:21 AM, Tom Anderson wrote: >>> It's utterly vile. We got GNOME 3 with Fedora 15, and switched over to >>> XFCE after about five minutes. >>> >>> XFCE is quite a step down from GNOME 2, but it's miles better than >>> GNOME 3. I am counting my blessings that i recently bought a Mac! >> >> What is wrong with GNOME 3? [much stuff] > - as you do other things this sensitive area tends to grow as time > passes and to overlap application windows including the one that > has focus. It gets bloody big too - something like a quarter circle > with its centroid in the top left corned and a raduis of half the > screen height. This sounds like a bug. They'll probably fix it soon. >> And if you prefer GNOME 2 to both GNOME 3 and XFCE, why not just >> use GNOME 2? > > Because G2 been removed from the latest Ubuntu release and AFAIK the same > will happen with the release of Fedora 16. Then get it directly from the GNOME folks, or wherever else it might be. If enough people are displeased with GNOME 3 there WILL be SOMEwhere where GNOME 2 is preserved for people that prefer it to download and install. Just because it's no longer available at the same time as the OS with a one-stop shop doesn't mean it's impossible to get and install it, period, you know. -- A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0028:C0011E36 in VXD VMM(01) 00010E36. The current application will be terminated. * Press any key to terminate the current application.
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-15 12:21 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <j7bts6$vgl$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #8811 |
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 01:16:47 -0400, B1ll Gat3s wrote: > Just because it's no longer available at the same time as the OS with a > one-stop shop doesn't mean it's impossible to get and install it, > period, you know. > Maybe, maybe not. I've read, from more than one source, that G2 will no longer work on Ubuntu, hence its removal though admittedly this also has a lot to do with the Ubuntu folks deciding they hated G3 and going off down the Unify track: maybe they've decided that Unify is now stable enough that alternatives aren't needed. With F16 Fedora moves to Kernel 3.x and completes its transition from using System V init to control boot-up and services to using systemd. As a result systemctl replaces 'service'. This in turn means that the daemon scripts in /etc/init.d become toast and are replaced by systemd service unit definitions. With G2 no longer being maintained (not that gnome.org was doing much to support it for the last year or two) and the relatively large number of fundamental changes going into F16 I wouldn't be surprised if it stops working under F16 too. At a minimum, a lot of stuff in the 'System' menu won't work any more. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | B1ll Gat3s <wm.g4t3s@m1cr0s0f7.c0m> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-15 15:42 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <j7cnmj$2g6$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #8815 |
On 15/10/2011 8:21 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote: > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 01:16:47 -0400, B1ll Gat3s wrote: > >> Just because it's no longer available at the same time as the OS with a >> one-stop shop doesn't mean it's impossible to get and install it, >> period, you know. >> > Maybe, maybe not. > > I've read, from more than one source, that G2 will no longer work on > Ubuntu, hence its removal though admittedly this also has a lot to do > with the Ubuntu folks deciding they hated G3 and going off down the Unify > track: maybe they've decided that Unify is now stable enough that > alternatives aren't needed. [etc. etc. etc. in a similar vein regarding F16] Missing the point that it's open source, so if you really, really prefer G2 to G3 you can always fix up G2 yourself to work on these. But it's also very likely that the Gnome folks will address the complaints about G3 -- and, if they don't, that people will eventually fork G3 and make a "no pet peeves" version of that. -- A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0028:C0011E36 in VXD VMM(01) 00010E36. The current application will be terminated. * Press any key to terminate the current application.
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-16 00:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <j7d86t$bgh$2@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #8826 |
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:42:10 -0400, B1ll Gat3s wrote: > Missing the point that it's open source, so if you really, really prefer > G2 to G3 you can always fix up G2 yourself to work on these. > Not missed at all. I've got more pressing things to work on than fixing G3 > But it's also very likely that the Gnome folks will address the > complaints about G3 -- and, if they don't, that people will eventually > fork G3 and make a "no pet peeves" version of that. > As I said, I'll look at G3.2 but the omens as listed in the 3.2 roadmap don't look good. But why don't you run up F15 and give us your impressions? -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-15 13:01 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <e7pj97pt57r2lgc7q9jc6mn5l1n2tse2sa@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #8815 |
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:21:27 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 01:16:47 -0400, B1ll Gat3s wrote: > >> Just because it's no longer available at the same time as the OS with a >> one-stop shop doesn't mean it's impossible to get and install it, >> period, you know. >> >Maybe, maybe not. > >I've read, from more than one source, that G2 will no longer work on >Ubuntu, hence its removal though admittedly this also has a lot to do >with the Ubuntu folks deciding they hated G3 and going off down the Unify >track: maybe they've decided that Unify is now stable enough that >alternatives aren't needed. > >With F16 Fedora moves to Kernel 3.x and completes its transition from >using System V init to control boot-up and services to using systemd. As >a result systemctl replaces 'service'. This in turn means that the daemon >scripts in /etc/init.d become toast and are replaced by systemd service >unit definitions. With G2 no longer being maintained (not that gnome.org >was doing much to support it for the last year or two) and the relatively >large number of fundamental changes going into F16 I wouldn't be >surprised if it stops working under F16 too. At a minimum, a lot of stuff >in the 'System' menu won't work any more. I am a puzzled by the Unix folk having so many ways of handling the GUI. I have heard of Gnome 1 2 3, KDE, X-Windows, Xfce, Unify Which does Java use? When you write a C program do you have to pick one? or do they share a common core API? -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com It should not be considered an error when the user starts something already started or stops something already stopped. This applies to browsers, services, editors... It is inexcusable to punish the user by requiring some elaborate sequence to atone, e.g. open the task editor, find and kill some processes.
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-15 16:49 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <4e99f1e1$0$288$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #8829 |
On 10/15/2011 4:01 PM, Roedy Green wrote: > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:21:27 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie > <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted > someone who said : > >> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 01:16:47 -0400, B1ll Gat3s wrote: >> >>> Just because it's no longer available at the same time as the OS with a >>> one-stop shop doesn't mean it's impossible to get and install it, >>> period, you know. >>> >> Maybe, maybe not. >> >> I've read, from more than one source, that G2 will no longer work on >> Ubuntu, hence its removal though admittedly this also has a lot to do >> with the Ubuntu folks deciding they hated G3 and going off down the Unify >> track: maybe they've decided that Unify is now stable enough that >> alternatives aren't needed. >> >> With F16 Fedora moves to Kernel 3.x and completes its transition from >> using System V init to control boot-up and services to using systemd. As >> a result systemctl replaces 'service'. This in turn means that the daemon >> scripts in /etc/init.d become toast and are replaced by systemd service >> unit definitions. With G2 no longer being maintained (not that gnome.org >> was doing much to support it for the last year or two) and the relatively >> large number of fundamental changes going into F16 I wouldn't be >> surprised if it stops working under F16 too. At a minimum, a lot of stuff >> in the 'System' menu won't work any more. > > I am a puzzled by the Unix folk having so many ways of handling the > GUI. I have heard of Gnome 1 2 3, KDE, X-Windows, Xfce, Unify > > Which does Java use? > > When you write a C program do you have to pick one? or do they share a > common core API? Neither Java or C depends on the Windows manager. Both Java and C somewhat depends on the GUI API (GTK for Gnome, Qt for KDE etc.). Java Swing is using a very level interface to X, but you can specify a GTK L&F and a Motif L&F (where Motif is similar to KDE just 15 years older). Java SWT comes for Gnome/GTK. It could be done for KDE/Qt, but I don't think it has been done. For C you write completely different code for GTK and Qt. In theory you could write for Xlib and Xt, but they are too low level to be practical. Arne
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-16 00:57 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <j7da6e$bgh$3@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #8829 |
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:01:46 -0700, Roedy Green wrote: > I am a puzzled by the Unix folk having so many ways of handling the GUI. > I have heard of Gnome 1 2 3, KDE, X-Windows, Xfce, Unify > Because we get a choice over the L&F. Everything uses X11, aka X-windows: thats the underlying display technology for all graphical displays on UNIX/Linux but it doesn't do window management/desktops. X-term is a non- graphical way of using X11 as a text-mode terminal -rather like a DOS box, but capable of talking to both local and remote hosts. To do anything useful with X11 you use a window manager: all distros pick one to use as default and each has its own style of handling the desktop, decorating application windows, launching applications, etc. etc. - hence the religious wars and differences of opinion over them. The common ones are Gnome and KDE (the two commonest ones), XFCE (very basic, but lightweight. If you run up VNC the default desktop for it is XFCE) and Unity (currently restricted to Ubuntu, introduced because they hate Gnome 3 but its reportedly disliked just as much). Gnome 1,2,3 are just versions of Gnome - think Java 2,3,4,5 6,.... > Which does Java use? > None, but Swing has a limited ability provide the same look and feel as the native windows manager for the system the JVM is installed on as well as Java's cross-platform Metal look & feel, e.g. G3 buttons and text entry boxes have rounded corners, but Java doesn't and its default button background gradient is different, as is the main menu bar though the appearance is fairly close. The title bar and its drop-down menus are, however, identical. > When you write a C program do you have to pick one? or do they share a > common core API? > No, they have different APIs. My distro uses Gnome by default but can support KDE. Almost all the apps I use are Gnome apps, but I do use one or two KDEapps. They run OK, but have a slightly different look & feel and drag in a whole bunch of KDEsupport libraries - but a decent package installer deals with that automatically. Package installers also differ: RedHat distros such as Fedora and Redhat clones use yum, Ubuntu and the other Debian clones use apt. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-17 00:51 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110170032560.27716@urchin.earth.li> |
| In reply to | #8842 |
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Martin Gregorie wrote: > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:01:46 -0700, Roedy Green wrote: > >> I am a puzzled by the Unix folk having so many ways of handling the >> GUI. I have heard of Gnome 1 2 3, KDE, X-Windows, Xfce, Unify > > Because we get a choice over the L&F. Everything uses X11, aka X-windows: > thats the underlying display technology for all graphical displays on > UNIX/Linux OS X is a certified UNIX, and does not use X for its main window system. I don't know much about Android, but i suspect it does not use X. Less pedantically, mainstream Linux seems to be heading away from X too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29 > To do anything useful with X11 you use a window manager: all distros > pick one to use as default and each has its own style of handling the > desktop, decorating application windows, launching applications, etc. > etc. - hence the religious wars and differences of opinion over them. > The common ones are Gnome and KDE (the two commonest ones), XFCE (very > basic, but lightweight. If you run up VNC the default desktop for it is > XFCE) and Unity (currently restricted to Ubuntu, introduced because they > hate Gnome 3 but its reportedly disliked just as much). None of those are window managers. They are desktop environments; they *include* a window manager as a core component (GNOME 2's is Metacity), but this can often be replaced (the popular upgrade on GNOME 2 is to Compiz). They include other important things too, like the session manager, panels, dock, etc. I'll also add LXDE, which an even more lightweight desktop environment for people who think XFCE is bloated. >> Which does Java use? > > None, but Swing has a limited ability provide the same look and feel as > the native windows manager for the system the JVM is installed on Again, it's not the window manager it's imitating, it's the widget toolkit. A widget toolkit knows how to draw buttons and scrollbars and so on, and is one of the building blocks of a desktop environment (although i think not a window manager proper?). KDE uses the Qt toolkit; all other significant desktop environments use GTK. A surprising thing for newcomers to Linux is that applications written using one widget toolkit will happily work on a desktop using another one (eg a Qt app on GNOME, which uses GTK). This is because the widget toolkits talk directly to the X server. The only thing is that the app's widgets will look inconsistent with the rest of the desktop. > as well as Java's cross-platform Metal look & feel, e.g. G3 buttons and > text entry boxes have rounded corners, but Java doesn't and its default > button background gradient is different, as is the main menu bar though > the appearance is fairly close. The title bar and its drop-down menus > are, however, identical. GNOME 3 uses GTK as a widget toolkit, and styles it with a special theme. Java imitates GTK with a standard theme (i assume), hence the difference. AWT must use a widget toolkit directly. In the Fedora release, this appears to be GTK. If you're into SWT, that uses GTK directly. How does Eclipse (as a representative SWT app) look under GNOME 3? tom -- So the moon is approximately 24 toasters from Scunthorpe.
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-16 22:12 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <4e9b8f0c$0$290$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #8880 |
On 10/16/2011 7:51 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: > On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Martin Gregorie wrote: >> Because we get a choice over the L&F. Everything uses X11, aka X-windows: >> thats the underlying display technology for all graphical displays on >> UNIX/Linux > > OS X is a certified UNIX, and does not use X for its main window system. > I don't know much about Android, but i suspect it does not use X. > > Less pedantically, mainstream Linux seems to be heading away from X too: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29 We will see. I am a bit skeptical about that happen. Arne
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-17 21:21 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <j7i694$kk4$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #8890 |
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:12:26 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 10/16/2011 7:51 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: >> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Martin Gregorie wrote: >>> Because we get a choice over the L&F. Everything uses X11, aka >>> X-windows: >>> thats the underlying display technology for all graphical displays on >>> UNIX/Linux >> >> OS X is a certified UNIX, and does not use X for its main window >> system. >> I don't know much about Android, but i suspect it does not use X. >> >> Less pedantically, mainstream Linux seems to be heading away from X >> too: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29 > > We will see. > > I am a bit skeptical about that happen. > The lack of network transparency in Wayland would be a major showstopper for me: my preferred way of working and of organising data and tasks across a network more or less depends on this feature of X11. That said, I'm uncertain how unusual this way of working appears to others. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-18 14:50 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <9g5i1tFnnbU3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #8929 |
In article <j7i694$kk4$1@localhost.localdomain>, Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote: > On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:12:26 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > > > On 10/16/2011 7:51 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: > >> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Martin Gregorie wrote: > >>> Because we get a choice over the L&F. Everything uses X11, aka > >>> X-windows: > >>> thats the underlying display technology for all graphical displays on > >>> UNIX/Linux > >> > >> OS X is a certified UNIX, and does not use X for its main window > >> system. > >> I don't know much about Android, but i suspect it does not use X. > >> > >> Less pedantically, mainstream Linux seems to be heading away from X > >> too: > >> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29 > > > > We will see. > > > > I am a bit skeptical about that happen. > > > The lack of network transparency in Wayland would be a major showstopper > for me: my preferred way of working and of organising data and tasks > across a network more or less depends on this feature of X11. > > That said, I'm uncertain how unusual this way of working appears to > others. > Seems perfectly normal to me to have graphical applications running on machine A and displaying output on machine B, and I also(?) am not eager to replace X11 with something that didn't have this "works across a network" functionality. But I've noticed that my ideas about a lot of computing-related things seem well out of the current mainstream, so -- a data point, but perhaps not a very representative one. -- B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
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| From | Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-18 08:59 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <24049304.27.1318953582217.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prng5> |
| In reply to | #8954 |
blmblm @ myrealbox. com wrote: > Seems perfectly normal to me to have graphical applications running > on machine A and displaying output on machine B, and I also(?) am > not eager to replace X11 with something that didn't have this > "works across a network" functionality. But I've noticed that > my ideas about a lot of computing-related things seem well out > of the current mainstream, so -- a data point, but perhaps not > a very representative one. Such use of X11 across a network, in particular across SSH, is common and widespread. -- Lew
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| From | Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-18 18:19 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <9g5n98F5upU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #8956 |
On 10/18/2011 05:59 PM, Lew wrote: > blmblm @ myrealbox. com wrote: >> Seems perfectly normal to me to have graphical applications running >> on machine A and displaying output on machine B, and I also(?) am >> not eager to replace X11 with something that didn't have this >> "works across a network" functionality. But I've noticed that >> my ideas about a lot of computing-related things seem well out >> of the current mainstream, so -- a data point, but perhaps not >> a very representative one. > > Such use of X11 across a network, in particular across SSH, is common and widespread. I have always found X11 across a network to be extremely slow and hence don't use it. IMHO RDP is significantly more efficient especially for remote connections, VNC's protocol could be as well. For my daily work I use putty combined with screen sessions on the remote machines (mostly Solaris). That is quite fast and also comfortable. And if your ssh connection breaks down for any reason (network issue, logout, reboot) your shells and other processes are still there. Funnily enough in our company the de facto standard is to use NX with X sessions - even though there seem to be issues when disconnecting and reconnecting. And people do not use graphical applications anyway - mostly just shells. :-) Kind regards robert
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| From | blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-10-18 17:43 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Ubuntu |
| Message-ID | <9g5s6sFh1jU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #8957 |
In article <9g5n98F5upU1@mid.individual.net>, Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote: Subject: Re: Ubuntu > > On 10/18/2011 05:59 PM, Lew wrote: > > blmblm @ myrealbox. com wrote: > >> Seems perfectly normal to me to have graphical applications running > >> on machine A and displaying output on machine B, and I also(?) am > >> not eager to replace X11 with something that didn't have this > >> "works across a network" functionality. But I've noticed that > >> my ideas about a lot of computing-related things seem well out > >> of the current mainstream, so -- a data point, but perhaps not > >> a very representative one. > > > > Such use of X11 across a network, in particular across SSH, is common and > > widespread. > > I have always found X11 across a network to be extremely slow and hence > don't use it. IMHO RDP is significantly more efficient especially for > remote connections, VNC's protocol could be as well. There is that (the performance issue). My experience has been that over a fast local network, it's good enough for most applications, though I seem to remember that there are exceptions (though not what they are). Over a not-so-fast network, yeah, it can be too slow to be usable. > For my daily work I use putty combined with screen sessions on the > remote machines (mostly Solaris). That is quite fast and also > comfortable. And if your ssh connection breaks down for any reason > (network issue, logout, reboot) your shells and other processes are > still there. > > Funnily enough in our company the de facto standard is to use NX with X > sessions - even though there seem to be issues when disconnecting and > reconnecting. And people do not use graphical applications anyway - > mostly just shells. :-) Strongly agreed about the value of "screen" -- I've even been known to use it locally, for its cut-and-paste features. Nice to know that there are at least a few other shell fans out there? -- B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
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