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demise of sun.com

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  demise of sun.com Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-09-15 00:54 -0700
    Re: demise of sun.com Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-09-15 08:27 -0700
      Re: demise of sun.com Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> - 2012-09-17 10:28 +0100
        Re: demise of sun.com "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-17 06:51 -0400
          Re: demise of sun.com Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-09-17 10:40 -0700
            Re: demise of sun.com Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-09-17 17:39 -0400
      Re: demise of sun.com Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-09-18 04:27 -0700
        Re: demise of sun.com Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-09-18 19:41 +0000
          Re: demise of sun.com Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 13:21 -0700
            Re: demise of sun.com Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-09-18 21:29 +0000
            Re: demise of sun.com Gunter Herrmann <notformail0106@earthlink.net> - 2012-09-19 13:30 -0400
        Re: demise of sun.com Stanimir Stamenkov <s7an10@netscape.net> - 2012-09-19 00:42 +0300

#18785 — demise of sun.com

Oracle has dropped dozens of links on sun.com without providing
redirects to oracle.com. I am doing my best to find replacements, but
I suspect a fair bit of material is going to disappear.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
The iPhone 5 is a low end Rolex. 

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#18787

On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 00:54:47 -0700, Roedy Green
<see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>Oracle has dropped dozens of links on sun.com without providing
>redirects to oracle.com. I am doing my best to find replacements, but
>I suspect a fair bit of material is going to disappear.

all these links now just go to a generic Java page:

http://developers.sun.com/jsenterprise/,
http://developers.sun.com/mobility/midp/articles/bluetooth2/,
http://developers.sun.com/mobility/midp/articles/wtoolkit/,
http://developers.sun.com/portalserver/reference/techart/jsr168/,
http://java.sun.com/applets/jdk/1.4/demo/applets/SortDemo/example1.html,
http://java.sun.com/applets/jdk/1.4/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/DataAccessObject.html,
http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/community/usergroups/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/Books/javaserverpages/cservletsjsp/chapter14.pdf,
http://java.sun.com/developer/codesamples/liberty.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/collections/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/corba/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Database/JDBC20Intro/exercises/BLOBGet/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Database/JDBC20Intro/exercises/BLOBPut/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Database/JDBC20Intro/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Database/JDBC20Intro/JDBC20.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Database/JDBCShortCourse/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/GUI/AWTLayoutMgr/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/GUI/Swing1/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/JavaMail/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/JSPIntro/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Programming/JDCBook/appB.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Programming/JDCBook/conpool.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Programming/JDCBook/jni.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/protocolhandlers/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/rmi/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Security/Fundamentals/abstract.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Security/Fundamentals/magercises/ClassLoader/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Servlets/Fundamentals/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/techDocs/hi/repository/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/GUI/AWTLayoutMgr/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Interviews/Bollella_qa.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Intl/HTTPCharset/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2EE/connectorclient/resourceadapter.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2EE/patterns/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2SE/Desktop/headless/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2SE/jconsole.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/javaserverpages/faster/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Media/imagestrategies/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Networking/classloaders/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Programming/serialization/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Programming/sprintf/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/WebServices/fastWS/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/WebServices/Forte4Java/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/xml/WebAppDev3/,
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/xml/webservices/,
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jni/,
http://java.sun.com/docs/glossary.html,
http://java.sun.com/docs/hotspot/gc1.4.2/,
http://java.sun.com/docs/hotspot/gc1.4.2/faq.html,
http://java.sun.com/docs/searchabledocs.html,
http://java.sun.com/docs/white/langenv/Simple.doc2.html,
http://java.sun.com/j2ee/connector/,
http://java.sun.com/j2ee/tutorial/1_3-fcs/doc/EJBConcepts5.html,
http://java.sun.com/j2ee/tutorial/1_3-fcs/doc/WCC3.html,
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/pdf/serial-spec.pdf,
http://java.sun.com/j2se/codenames.html,
http://java.sun.com/j2se/javadoc/mifdoclet/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/j2se/versioning_naming.html,
http://java.sun.com/javase/faqs.jsp,
http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/desktop/,
http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/desktop/articles.jsp,
http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/desktop/javawebstart/download-spec.html,
http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/desktop/media/,
http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/desktop/printing/,
http://java.sun.com/performance/jvmstat/faq.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/cldc/,
http://java.sun.com/products/jain/,
http://java.sun.com/products/jain/api_specs.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jain/certification.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jain/certprod_table.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jain/SIP-and-Java.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/2D/index.jsp,
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/jai/downloads/download-iio-1_0_01.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/jai/forDevelopers/jaifaq.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/sound/reference/api/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/sound/samples/JavaSoundDemo/,
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/speech/forDevelopers/jsapifaq.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/javacomm/reference/faqs/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/javamail/Third_Party.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/faq/jni-j2sdk-faq.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/faq/jnifaq-old.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/faq/jnifaq.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jdmk/index.jsp,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/ChristmasTree/,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/javaOne2001/1315/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/merlin/2d.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/painting/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/sce/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/tablelayout/,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/threads/threads1.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/threads/threads2.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/threads/threads3.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/sightings/,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/special_report/kestrel/keybindings.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/tech_topics/jlist_1/jlist.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jimi/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jlf/at/book/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jlf/ed2/book/Appendix.C.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jlf/ed2/book/Appendix.C2.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jlf/ed2/book/HIG.Dialogs3.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jlf/ed2/book/HIG.Visual2.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jlf/ed2/book/index.html,
http://java.sun.com/products/jts/jts-spec0_95.pdf,
http://java.sun.com/products/jtwi/,
http://java.sun.com/products/personalprofile/index.jsp,
http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/1.2/docs/nsobjsigning.html,
http://java.sun.com/reference/faqs/, http://java.sun.com/remove.jsp,
http://java.sun.com/webservices/downloads/webservicestutorial.html, 

I have left out the ones I have researched replacements for.  In many
case the old document is gone, and replaced my a number of new
documents.

It is a common thing for a webmaster to reorganise a website. The
catch is the links into that website then stop working.  Ideally the
webmaster should set  up permanent redirects from the old URL to the
new to inform everyone of where their old pages went and to keep the
old links working.  However, companies such as Oracle do not do this.
They prefer to force the hundreds of websites that link into them to
individually research the links with Google to  find the new ones or
delete them.  Obviously the total amount of work is thousands of times
greater, but they don't care. It is not them doing the work, it is the
companies who send them  business. Mindless next-quarter capitalism
demands this sort of behaviour.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
The iPhone 5 is a low end Rolex. 

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#18801

On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 08:27:44 -0700, Roedy Green
<see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:

>On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 00:54:47 -0700, Roedy Green
><see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
>someone who said :
>
>>Oracle has dropped dozens of links on sun.com without providing
>>redirects to oracle.com. I am doing my best to find replacements, but
>>I suspect a fair bit of material is going to disappear.
>
>all these links now just go to a generic Java page:

-snip-

>It is a common thing for a webmaster to reorganise a website. The
>catch is the links into that website then stop working.  Ideally the
>webmaster should set  up permanent redirects from the old URL to the
>new to inform everyone of where their old pages went and to keep the
>old links working.  However, companies such as Oracle do not do this.
>They prefer to force the hundreds of websites that link into them to
>individually research the links with Google to  find the new ones or
>delete them.  Obviously the total amount of work is thousands of times
>greater, but they don't care. It is not them doing the work, it is the
>companies who send them  business. Mindless next-quarter capitalism
>demands this sort of behaviour.

This is particularly annoying when you search for a problem and find a
'solution' in a forum, which is just a link to a now nonexistent web
page.
-- 
(\__/)  M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

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#18802

In article <m7rd58dh1dir8b30kltplg2tulhcp5f0cr@4ax.com>,
 Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> wrote:

> This is particularly annoying when you search for a problem and find 
> a 'solution' in a forum, which is just a link to a now nonexistent 
> web page.

And how! As a concrete example, I frequently cite _A Swing Architecture 
Overview_ formerly here:

<http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/architecture/>

Now here:

<http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/architecture-142923.html>

Note how the (now missing) embedded images still refer to the old site. 

They (eventually) normalized the API documentation into a convenient 
scheme:

<http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/index.html>
<http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/index.html>
Etc.

I can only hope for the best, while preparing for the worst.

-- 
John B. Matthews
trashgod at gmail dot com
<http://sites.google.com/site/drjohnbmatthews>

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#18807

On 9/17/12 3:51 AM, John B. Matthews wrote:
> In article <m7rd58dh1dir8b30kltplg2tulhcp5f0cr@4ax.com>,
>   Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> wrote:
>
>> This is particularly annoying when you search for a problem and find
>> a 'solution' in a forum, which is just a link to a now nonexistent
>> web page.
>
> And how! As a concrete example, I frequently cite _A Swing Architecture
> Overview_ formerly here:
>
> <http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/architecture/>
>
> Now here:
>
> <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/architecture-142923.html>
>
> Note how the (now missing) embedded images still refer to the old site.
>
> They (eventually) normalized the API documentation into a convenient
> scheme:
>
> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/index.html>
> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/index.html>
> Etc.
I really wish they had normalized it to 
/javase/latest/docs/api/index.html, with 
/javase/archive/6/docs/api/index.html for the "older" versions.  Google 
still links to 1.4 in some cases, and rarely to 7 specifically.
>
> I can only hope for the best, while preparing for the worst.
>

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#18814

On 9/17/2012 1:40 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> On 9/17/12 3:51 AM, John B. Matthews wrote:
>> They (eventually) normalized the API documentation into a convenient
>> scheme:
>>
>> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/index.html>
>> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/index.html>
>> Etc.
> I really wish they had normalized it to
> /javase/latest/docs/api/index.html, with
> /javase/archive/6/docs/api/index.html for the "older" versions.  Google
> still links to 1.4 in some cases, and rarely to 7 specifically.

It often helps to specify the Java version in the Google search.

java 7 java.util.scanner

instead of:

java.util.scanner

Arne

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#18817

On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 08:27:44 -0700, Roedy Green
<see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>all these links now just go to a generic Java page:

This is quite tedious work finding where these links went. In most
cases the original essay has been dropped.  I have had to find other
materials to replace it.

There is a similar problem with RFCs.  Old ones don't have a link to
the new replacement.

The author of a deleted document could most easily set up a forward
link faster than even one user could research it.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
The iPhone 5 is a low end Rolex. 

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#18826

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:27:39 -0700, Roedy Green wrote:

> There is a similar problem with RFCs.  Old ones don't have a link to the
> new replacement.
>
...but there's a known solution for RFCs - the RFC search engine 
   http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html 

This takes an RFC number or a word/phrase in the RFC title and digs out 
the referenced RFC plus a chain linked forward and backward to show all 
the RFCs your taget obsoleted as well as those that make it obsolete.
  
> The author of a deleted document could most easily set up a forward link
> faster than even one user could research it.
>
Sure, but using the search engine is easier for both author and 
researchers.

... I now return you to the scheduled program.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#18827

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Roedy Green wrote:
>> There is a similar problem with RFCs.  Old ones don't have a link to the
>> new replacement.
>>
> 
> ...but there's a known solution for RFCs - the RFC search engine 
>    http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html 
> 
> This takes an RFC number or a word/phrase in the RFC title and digs out 
> the referenced RFC plus a chain linked forward and backward to show all 
> the RFCs your taget obsoleted as well as those that make it obsolete.
> 
>> The author of a deleted document could most easily set up a forward link
>> faster than even one user could research it.

Martin disproves this.

Google disproves this.

> Sure, but using the search engine is easier for both author and 
> researchers.
> 
> ... I now return you to the scheduled program.

Good search tools simulate intelligence better than cognitive 
algorithms do, under many circumstances.

http://xkcd.com/903/

Suppose you write seventeen articles a year online, "you" being 
any arbitrary entity such as you personally, a committee, a reporting 
system or whatnot. Say the articles have a half-life of interval until 
a link needs updating, along the lines that sun.com and RFC articles do.

You would need to review your own documents over years to keep them 
up to date. This is what Oracle has done. Given finite resources, 
there is a limit to how many articles you can update per year, and 
still maintain your output of new articles. It stands to reason that 
some articles will not be updated at any given time.

Regardless of the actual numbers, it's clear that link maintenance 
will require increasing energy over time, as the mass of articles grows.

Consider instead a search solution along the lines Martin mentioned 
for RFCs. Links can still be maintained, according to a triage system 
of need and benefit. But they need not be, given a search system that 
elicits the same connections on demand.

The search system complexity and deficiencies are completely independent 
of the article base, and presumably bounded. Instead of an increasing 
energy investment in link maintenance, lacking opportunity for innovation, 
you have steady energy investment in search enhancement, with ample 
opportunity for innovation and increased value.

-- 
Lew

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#18829

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:21:35 -0700, Lew wrote:

> Consider instead a search solution along the lines Martin mentioned for
> RFCs. Links can still be maintained, according to a triage system of
> need and benefit. But they need not be, given a search system that
> elicits the same connections on demand.
> 
> The search system complexity and deficiencies are completely independent
> of the article base, and presumably bounded.
>
<nitpicking>
There is a small dependency. In systems like the RFC search each article 
has to unambiguously reference the one it is obsoleting and (probably) 
needs to share some common terms in the title or abstract: these 
represent a small burden on the author when the article is written but 
should need no maintenance thereafter. 

It should also be simple for the search system to automatically add a 
forward link to the article it obsoletes or extends when its added to the 
database. 
</nitpicking>


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#18852

Hi!

Lew wrote:
> Instead of an increasing
> energy investment in link maintenance, lacking opportunity for innovation,
> you have steady energy investment in search enhancement, with ample
> opportunity for innovation and increased value.

They could use a database such as DB2 (or even Oracle) ;-) to maintain all
links in their pages (including the history). So if you want to move,
remove or replace a document you will see all links that need to be updated.

Additionally you could provide a search form to find replacement links for
broken links (from the history).

An initial scan would process all pages and search for external and internal
links and populate some tables from that.

Regards

Gunter in Orlando, Fl

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#18830

Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:27:39 -0700, /Roedy Green/:

> There is a similar problem with RFCs.  Old ones don't have a link to
> the new replacement.

There's a nifty tool at ietf.org which allows viewing RFC documents 
using HTML markup:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/

The HTML version adds a header with 'Obsoleted by' and 'Updated by' 
links (and other useful information), for example:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc822

In my Mozilla browser I've setup a keyword bookmark [1] like:

Location: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc%s
Keyword: rfc

Therefore typing "rfc 822" (or select/copy, or drag-n-drop) into the 
"Address" field of the browser opens the corresponding RFC document 
HTML version very conveniently for me.

[1] 
<http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-search-from-address-bar>, 
<http://kb.mozillazine.org/Using_keyword_searches>, 
<https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Bookmark_Keywords>, 
<http://www-archive.mozilla.org/docs/end-user/keywords.html>

-- 
Stanimir

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