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Re: FireFox Bug 856969 -Too much recursion error with Java LiveConnect Applet

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"Richard Maher"  wrote in message news:kla3u9$7g4$1@speranza.aioe.org...

> It's hard hearing that from someone whose IT opinion I respect.
>
> I've believed for years that JavaFX was still-born and now see that it is 
> gaining some traction but I'm with the "Browser is the GUI" crowd and 
> think you're painting yourself into a corner again. Even .NET sites have 
> conceded that sending JSON back and forth from the server is the way to go 
> and JavaScript is doing the GUI.
>
> I'm not saying Java has a big part to play with the GUI (very little in 
> fact) but the feature rich infrastructure tool-set it brings to the 
> browser (even sand-boxed) is second to none.
>
> I guess it's just that when Apple, Google, and Microsoft donned their 
> brown shirts and started kicking in Java's windows I expected Larry to be 
> a little more upset about it.

Everyone is talking about HTML5/JavaScript/CSS etc. as being the future of 
application development.  What is happening in reality is considerably 
different however.

It's well known that Facebook regrets investing so much in an HTML 
application and then diverted their attention to developing native apps. 
LinkedIn have just done exactly the same thing.  When iOS for iPhone was 
first announced, Apple expected most apps would be browser based only to 
find that now the vast majority of apps are in fact native.  Same thing for 
Android.  Even Microsoft is finding that developers aren't really interested 
in HTML for "Metro" apps (and not really interested in Windows 8 specific 
apps at all).

The point is that a world dominated by HTML5 has simply not eventuated and 
possibly never will.  With dramatic declines in sales of PCs, it won't be 
long until the vast majority of computer uses will be mainly using tablets 
and mobiles for their everyday computing.  Desktop PCs will never go away 
but will only be used by a very specific kind of user such as developers, 
graphic designers etc.  Given all this, in 5-10 years time, who will be even 
using a web browser?  Just about every major website has a native app to 
access their site which provides more features and becomes the most common 
way to interact with their site.  Are we moving to an app-centric world 
without a need for web browsers?

Clearly there is definitely a future for native apps and probably always 
will be.  They are more prevalent now than ever and continue to grow in 
popularity.  The problem with applets is that they are part native and part 
browser based.  The latter seriously restricts what they can do and limits 
their availability by imposing all manner of usability impediments as 
previously mentioned.  To me it makes sense to either go all the way with a 
native app or all the way with a web app.

Like you, I am disappointed in the way Oracle has responded to the covert 
attacks on applets by Microsoft, Google, Apple and others but you need to 
remember that Oracle is an "enterprise technology" company.  Why would they 
care about applets at all?  I think we are lucky they actually care about 
Java in general.  Unfortunately you and I cannot "protect" applets or have 
any influence on the browser vendors and the level of support they provide 
for them.  Clearly Oracle are not going to do that either.  This is why I 
reluctantly walked away from applets after many years of investing in them.

But this does not mean I have to walk away from Java or walk away from 
client side or GUI Java completely.  For reasons which up to now escape me, 
Oracle *do* seem to be interested in JavaFX.  Also, JavaFX is a very good 
graphics toolkit.  Oracle have made it quite clear that they see Swing and 
AWT and traditional applets as being completely dead.  They will not spend 
another cent in enhancing those technologies.  They are encouraging everyone 
to move to JavaFX and that is what I am doing.

JavaFX gives us the ability to do many things we simply couldn't do in Swing 
and I very much like what I see.  It is just another Java API and I can use 
the entire Java platform if I want to.  That's the main advantage JavaFX has 
over other competing toolkits.  None of those competing technologies gives 
the developer access to so much rich, stable and advanced functionality.

Anyway, I have never been a big fan of HTML based UIs.  The performance has 
always been a huge problem and still is (yes, don't believe the hype). 
JavaScript is a difficult language to use to develop complex, sophisticated 
applications and has nowhere near the same support in IDEs as Java does. The 
need for browser sniffing is still prevalent with each browser implementing 
HTML and JavaScript in a slightly different way.  This is in spite of the 
rise of libraries such as jQuery.  Added to this is the fact that there are 
simply many, many things that you just can't do in a browser based app and 
why would I invest heavily in a solution which isn't ideal on phones and 
tablets?

Unfortunately there is still no "kick arse" 
technology/toolkit/API/library/product that is going to allow you to develop 
a single code base and deploy to all the various platforms out there in such 
a way that each deployment is optimised for that platform.  However, JavaFX 
has the potential to be this object of desire if it could just get over the 
one major drawback it has now which is that, at the moment at least, it 
doesn't run on iOS or Android.

And this is where I worry and why I have not fully committed to JavaFX just 
yet.  The problem is that Oracle management are not convinced that investing 
in porting JavaFX to mobiles and tablets is a commercially sensible thing to 
do.  How they could be so amazingly ignorant like this is anyone's guess! 
The JavaFX development team at Oracle lead by Richard Bair is absolutely 
passionate about getting JavaFX onto those platforms but they are not being 
funded to do so.  For some inexplicable reason, Oracle thinks it's more 
important or financially sound to invest in porting JavaFX to 
obscure/niche/novelty hardware like Raspberry Pi or Beagle Board which 
hardly anyone actually uses.  They even think that adding support for 3D 
graphics is more important than adding support for phones and tablets.

Some of the decisions being made by Oracle management in this area at the 
moment defy belief but the fact they are making them really worries me. 
Given that PC sales are rapidly declining and that at the moment JavaFX only 
really runs on Windows, MacOS and Linux, what's going to happen to it when 
most people abandon such platforms and use their phones and tablets to do 
most or all of their computing?  Who will be using JavaFX then?

Most pundits agree that any current technology that does not adapt and 
evolve to fully embrace the emerging platforms is effectively already dead. 
It's obvious to everyone except upper management inside Oracle that JavaFX 
is dead unless support for mobiles and tablets appears in the very near 
future.

On the positive side, Oracle has just released all the code they have been 
working on to support JavaFX on these platforms.  Over the last couple of 
years they have been teasing us with demos of JavaFX running on iOS and 
Android but this has not developed into solutions that we can all use.  Now 
that they are releasing the code they have developed we find that the Java 
part of the equation has been running in fully interpreted mode only and has 
been unacceptably slow.  This is because an OS like iOS does not support 
executable memory which is required by JIT compilers such as HotSpot.  There 
are also "legal" and political issues surrounding interpreted code. The only 
way to have Java and JavaFX running on these platforms is to implement a 
Java AOT compiler.

The situation at the moment is that Oracle has released all the code they 
have and are now washing their hands of it.  They do not have the funding to 
take the porting process any further.  They may never have this support from 
management.  Oracle has declared that the "community" must now pick up this 
code and do all the work remaining in getting JavaFX to run on mobiles and 
tablets.  It's entirely up to us now.

This is concerning on at least two fronts.  First, who is going to pick up 
this project?  Secondly, what does this say about Oracle's opinion of JavaFX 
and its future in general?

We need a cashed-up company to come along now and lead the project and 
invest enough money into it to make it happen.  This is not about 
individuals, there is simply too much work for any one person to do on their 
own.  Will this ever happen?

The bottom line is that Java and JavaFX have all the features I need to 
develop the kind of software I am working on and provide a better solution 
than any of the competitors.  However, until I can be convinced that it will 
run on iOS and Android one day I will be very reluctant to devote my 
attention to it in any committed way.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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FireFox Bug 856969 -Too much recursion error with Java LiveConnect Applet Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-04-02 20:44 +0800
  Re: FireFox Bug 856969 -Too much recursion error with Java LiveConnect Applet Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-04-16 17:47 +0800
    Re: FireFox Bug 856969 -Too much recursion error with Java LiveConnect Applet Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-04-16 13:01 +0200
      Re: FireFox Bug 856969 -Too much recursion error with Java LiveConnect Applet Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-04-21 14:44 +0800
        Re: FireFox Bug 856969 -Too much recursion error with Java LiveConnect Applet "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-04-21 20:17 +1000
          Re: FireFox Bug 856969 -Too much recursion error with Java LiveConnect Applet Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-04-25 10:20 +0800
            Re: FireFox Bug 856969 -Too much recursion error with Java LiveConnect Applet "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-04-25 15:14 +1000

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