Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #23306

Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List)

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Subject	Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List)
Date	Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:34:59 -0700
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On 4/4/2013 5:35 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:

> You have to decide:
>
> a) the mere use of final does not remove the need for synchronization
> b) the mere use of final does remove the need for synchronization, and the
> class that exposes the final instance of the list is still thread-safe.
>

I thought it was obvious, but of course you also have to prevent writes 
to the object.  final is necessary but not sufficient.  Mea culpa if 
that's the cause of the misunderstanding here.  I should have been more 
precise in my language.  Unfortunately I was just focusing on one aspect 
of making an object immutable, just the final-ctor combo, and ignoring 
others.

> But you can still have immutable, thread safe objects without final:
>
> public class A {
> 	private int i = 1;
> 	
> 	public int getI(); { return i; }
> }
>
> This class is thread safe and immutable. And completely without final.

No, this is very explicitly wrong, and I'm sure the rest of the list 
would agree.  (I think you're confusing this with an example using a 
static (class) field.)

The JLS explicitly says that writes on one thread are not visible 
immediately to another thread.  If thread A constructs this object, then 
thread B calls getI, it's liable to see the previous value of i (0) 
rather than the write by thread A which is still sitting in A's CPU cache.

You have to do something to flush that write out to main memory.  In a 
nutshell, that's what visibility means in the JLS.  Two threads on two 
CPUs won't see the same values unless force those writes to flush out to 
main memory.

>
> That memory barrier is the ctor. It alone is enough to make the writes
> visible.

No, memory barriers are pretty expensive and the Java compiler doesn't 
force them when not needed.  Regular ol' POJO objects don't have a 
memory barrier at the end of their ctor.  That's the whole point of 
section 17 in the JLS, Threads and Locks.  It tells you how to use your 
normally not-thread-safe objects safely.

> I would like to see an example to back up this claim that it's poissible to
> see a partially constructed object merely by it having non-final fields,
> without giving out a reference to the partially constructed object (like I
> did in my example).

There are several good examples in the JLS, which I'm going to refer you 
too, so I don't louse-up an example again.  There's example 17.4-1 in 
the section on the Java memory model:

<http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-17.html#jls-17.4>

There also another example 17.4.5-1 in the section on happens-before 
consistency

<http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-17.html#jls-17.4.5>

Both of those examples involve two writes, but that doesn't matter.  The 
accompanying text makes it clear that any write, even one single write, 
can be re-ordered by the system.

Also take a look at section 17.4.1 where it talks about shared variables 
and heap memory.

<docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-17.html#jls-17.4.1>

Instance fields are explicitly included, and your class A has an 
instance field i that needs to be synchronized somehow.  It's not thread 
safe on its own.

> Luckily someone else already quoted the point I'm trying to make that you
> disagree with: you can have immutable objects without everything being
> final just fine, as long as you don't let that lack of finality escape out
> into the wild.

That example was really different than what you presented in your 
example with the class A above.  It's one reason why Arne's example from 
JCIP also says "don't try this at home." ;-)  It's really tough to 
reason about these things and easy to get wrong; really really easy.  I 
urge you to study this because I'm concerned that you've missed a couple 
of not-too-subtle points about concurrency in Java.

Thread

Inserting In a List subhabangalore@gmail.com - 2013-04-02 03:11 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-04-02 03:59 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-02 08:27 -0300
  Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-02 08:59 -0300
    Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:06 +0000
      Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 18:22 -0400
        Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-02 22:52 +0000
          Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 02:04 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:20 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:03 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 21:26 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 22:29 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:16 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-04-02 20:26 -0500
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 21:29 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:07 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 05:45 -0300
              Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 15:26 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 18:09 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 00:54 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 20:30 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:35 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 20:55 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 02:00 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 19:49 -0400
            Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-03 22:43 +0000
              Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:08 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-04 00:42 +0000
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:12 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-04 21:47 +0000
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:36 +0200
          Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:08 -0400
            Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-03 22:37 +0000
              Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 20:50 -0400
  Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-02 14:35 +0200
    Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-02 15:08 +0100
      Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-02 21:06 +0200
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:41 -0400
          Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 08:09 +0200
            Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:13 -0400
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:08 -0400
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-03 11:15 +0100
          Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 19:08 +0200
            Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-03 19:51 +0100
              Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 21:01 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 14:15 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 18:22 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 15:41 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 19:56 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:58 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:08 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:21 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:27 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 21:20 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 19:17 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 20:45 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 21:30 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:34 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 09:52 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:39 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 19:50 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-04 08:27 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 09:47 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 19:44 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 11:08 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 22:53 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 14:29 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-05 21:54 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 19:48 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:05 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:24 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:32 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 21:54 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 21:25 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:37 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 21:57 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 19:23 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 21:58 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-06 17:19 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 17:28 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-07 09:02 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 19:20 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 19:24 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 18:41 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 18:31 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:46 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 20:09 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 20:47 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2013-04-04 00:42 -0500
                Re: Usefulness of "final" paul.cager@gmail.com - 2013-04-04 01:55 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:45 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 00:46 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:10 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:25 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:44 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:57 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:19 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:35 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 10:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:43 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 16:22 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 16:49 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 18:21 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 18:49 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 05:30 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:10 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:29 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 02:53 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2013-04-04 13:51 -0600
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 13:31 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-06 10:50 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 09:09 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 05:37 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 06:10 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 19:40 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 05:44 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-05 14:08 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 13:33 -0700
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 09:11 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 15:20 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 16:25 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:50 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 18:13 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-06 14:32 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 15:02 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 22:12 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 10:35 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:02 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 13:41 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 13:53 +0200
              Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 23:05 +0200
      Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-02 22:09 +0200
      Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:03 -0400
      Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 21:39 +0200
        Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-07 01:08 +0200
        Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 22:15 -0700
          Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 08:48 +0100
            Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 12:32 -0700
              Re: Inserting In a List "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-07 21:06 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-08 08:40 +0100
        Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 08:55 +0100
          Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 17:54 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 19:53 +0100
              Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-07 17:58 -0300
              Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-08 08:28 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-08 08:54 +0100
                Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-08 19:13 +0200
              Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-12 20:58 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 13:17 -0700
            Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 12:40 -0700
              Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-12 20:47 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 13:14 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2013-04-02 13:53 +0100
  Re: Inserting In a List Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-04-02 07:10 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 10:46 -0700
    Re: Inserting In a List markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-02 11:28 -0700
      Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:00 -0400
  Re: Inserting In a List subhabangalore@gmail.com - 2013-04-03 01:47 -0700
    Re: Inserting In a List Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2013-04-03 10:35 +0100

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