Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #23268

Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List)

From	markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List)
Date	2013-04-03 18:34 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kjil6h$vsm$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <kjib26$914$1@dont-email.me> <515cc192$0$32109$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <515cc3b2$0$32111$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <kjih37$b0m$1@dont-email.me> <515cca24$0$32109$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>

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On 4/3/2013 5:32 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/3/2013 8:24 PM, markspace wrote:
>> On 4/3/2013 5:05 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> But now you raise the question, then final is only slightly
>>> involved in immutability in Java.
>>>
>>> If is neither sufficient nor necessary to make them
>>> immutable.
>>
>> final is necessary.
>
> No.
>
>>                 It is not sufficient (you also have to not mutate
>> the object in question after the enclosing object's ctor exits).  I'm
>> pretty sure the field must also be explicitly private.  (Implicitly
>> might not be enough to satisfy what ever escape analysis the Java
>> compiler does.)
>>
>>>
>>> Bloch recommends using final for immutables to:
>>> - express intention
>>> - work better with the Java memory model
>>
>> Read Java Concurrency in Practice.  That's what I'm referring too.
>
> My copy page 47 footnote 12 says:
>
> "It is technically possible to have an immutable object without all
> fields being final"
>
> Is that missing in your copy?

Right and he goes on to say that String is an example.  But String does 
rely on final fields -- its char array is final -- and its immutability 
derives directly from that.  Brain Goetz also adds "don't try this at 
home" meaning it's difficult to actually do.  He's referring to the 
idempotentcy [sic?] of its hash code -- but that doesn't work if the 
char array is not final.

I'm just talking about the semantics about final here.  I'm trying to 
not focus on other implication of having a final field.  I think the 
subject is complicated enough with out introducing other ways to make an 
object thread safe immutable.  If you want, I'll agree that there are 
exceptions, but I have to insist that final is the normal mechanic, and 
if one doesn't understand final fields one won't understand the bits 
that Brian Goetz says to "don't try this at home."

Thread

Inserting In a List subhabangalore@gmail.com - 2013-04-02 03:11 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-04-02 03:59 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-02 08:27 -0300
  Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-02 08:59 -0300
    Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:06 +0000
      Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 18:22 -0400
        Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-02 22:52 +0000
          Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 02:04 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:20 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:03 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 21:26 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 22:29 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:16 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-04-02 20:26 -0500
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 21:29 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:07 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 05:45 -0300
              Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 15:26 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 18:09 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 00:54 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 20:30 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:35 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 20:55 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 02:00 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 19:49 -0400
            Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-03 22:43 +0000
              Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:08 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-04 00:42 +0000
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:12 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-04 21:47 +0000
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:36 +0200
          Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:08 -0400
            Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-03 22:37 +0000
              Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 20:50 -0400
  Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-02 14:35 +0200
    Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-02 15:08 +0100
      Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-02 21:06 +0200
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:41 -0400
          Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 08:09 +0200
            Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:13 -0400
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:08 -0400
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-03 11:15 +0100
          Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 19:08 +0200
            Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-03 19:51 +0100
              Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 21:01 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 14:15 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 18:22 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 15:41 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 19:56 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:58 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:08 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:21 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:27 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 21:20 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 19:17 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 20:45 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 21:30 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:34 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 09:52 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:39 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 19:50 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-04 08:27 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 09:47 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 19:44 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 11:08 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 22:53 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 14:29 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-05 21:54 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 19:48 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:05 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:24 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:32 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 21:54 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 21:25 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:37 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 21:57 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 19:23 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 21:58 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-06 17:19 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 17:28 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-07 09:02 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 19:20 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 19:24 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 18:41 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 18:31 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:46 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 20:09 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 20:47 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2013-04-04 00:42 -0500
                Re: Usefulness of "final" paul.cager@gmail.com - 2013-04-04 01:55 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:45 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 00:46 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:10 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:25 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:44 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:57 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:19 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:35 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 10:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:43 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 16:22 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 16:49 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 18:21 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 18:49 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 05:30 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:10 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:29 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 02:53 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2013-04-04 13:51 -0600
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 13:31 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-06 10:50 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 09:09 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 05:37 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 06:10 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 19:40 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 05:44 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-05 14:08 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 13:33 -0700
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 09:11 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 15:20 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 16:25 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:50 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 18:13 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-06 14:32 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 15:02 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 22:12 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 10:35 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:02 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 13:41 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 13:53 +0200
              Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 23:05 +0200
      Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-02 22:09 +0200
      Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:03 -0400
      Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 21:39 +0200
        Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-07 01:08 +0200
        Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 22:15 -0700
          Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 08:48 +0100
            Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 12:32 -0700
              Re: Inserting In a List "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-07 21:06 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-08 08:40 +0100
        Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 08:55 +0100
          Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 17:54 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 19:53 +0100
              Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-07 17:58 -0300
              Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-08 08:28 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-08 08:54 +0100
                Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-08 19:13 +0200
              Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-12 20:58 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 13:17 -0700
            Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 12:40 -0700
              Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-12 20:47 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 13:14 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2013-04-02 13:53 +0100
  Re: Inserting In a List Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-04-02 07:10 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 10:46 -0700
    Re: Inserting In a List markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-02 11:28 -0700
      Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:00 -0400
  Re: Inserting In a List subhabangalore@gmail.com - 2013-04-03 01:47 -0700
    Re: Inserting In a List Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2013-04-03 10:35 +0100

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