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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #23254

Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List)

From markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam>
Newsgroups comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List)
Date 2013-04-03 17:19 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <kjigpn$9bd$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <1m6qixygl0s9c$.1fv60gxfuhuyz.dlg@40tude.net> <kjicp7$jeu$1@dont-email.me> <117qwc9w50mtb.1aizwvzf7bigo.dlg@40tude.net> <kjieou$uii$1@dont-email.me> <1rb5a1rqvwu96.4bxnq45wdqe8.dlg@40tude.net>

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On 4/3/2013 4:57 PM, Joerg Meier wrote:

> That initial write is not synchronized to other threads.

Yes it is!  (Not immediately synchronized, at the end of the ctor.) 
Read the JLS, besides the part I quoted above:

<http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-17.html#jls-17.5.1>

"Let o be an object, and c be a constructor for o in which a final field 
f is written. A freeze action on final field f of o takes place when c 
exits, either normally or abruptly....

Given a write w, a freeze f, an action a (that is not a read of a final 
field), a read r1 of the final field frozen by f, and a read r2 such 
that hb(w, f), hb(f, a), mc(a, r1), and dereferences(r1, r2), then when 
determining which values can be seen by r2, we consider hb(w, r2). (This 
happens-before ordering does not transitively close with other 
happens-before orderings.) "

That's as clear as mud, but what it means is that objects referenced by 
final fields, and all writes to those objects, are made visible at the 
end of the object's ctor.

> If
> you let an object instance get out that isn't fully constructed, then you
> will get the usual synchornization issues, final or not. Don't believe me ?

This is true.  If the final field object escapes from the enclosing 
class, or any writes are made after the object is constructed, then both 
immutability and thread-safety are broken.

> If I misunderstood, and you believe that structural changes to the
> ArrayList would be visible to all threads, then you are still wrong,

In the second example you gave where the reference to 'stooges' leaves 
the enclosing class, it is definitely neither immutable nor thread-safe.

> The mere use of final does not remove the need for synchronization.

Yes it does!  That was explicitly stated in the very short bit I quoted 
at the beginning of this whole mess.

> Nor
> does the mere lack of it dictate a need.

No.  'final' is special here.

> The reason synchronization is not
> needed with proper immutability is an effect from what final does - because
> it can only be assigned once, once it is you can then let everyone play
> with it, because you dont NEED to worry about writes - there will be none.

No, you still need to, at a low level, insert a memory barrier to make 
those writes visible.  You'd need to use synchronization or a volatile 
variable or some other synchronization in Java, or you could see a 
partially constructed object. Just like any regular object that doesn't 
use final or volatile fields.

Also, go read Java Concurrency in Practice by Brian Goetz.  He covers 
this in some detail (complete with Stooges example).

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Thread

Inserting In a List subhabangalore@gmail.com - 2013-04-02 03:11 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-04-02 03:59 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-02 08:27 -0300
  Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-02 08:59 -0300
    Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:06 +0000
      Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 18:22 -0400
        Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-02 22:52 +0000
          Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 02:04 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:20 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:03 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 21:26 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 22:29 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:16 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-04-02 20:26 -0500
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 21:29 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:07 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 05:45 -0300
              Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 15:26 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 18:09 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 00:54 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 20:30 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:35 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 20:55 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 02:00 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 19:49 -0400
            Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-03 22:43 +0000
              Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:08 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-04 00:42 +0000
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:12 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-04 21:47 +0000
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:36 +0200
          Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:08 -0400
            Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-03 22:37 +0000
              Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 20:50 -0400
  Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-02 14:35 +0200
    Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-02 15:08 +0100
      Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-02 21:06 +0200
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:41 -0400
          Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 08:09 +0200
            Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:13 -0400
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:08 -0400
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-03 11:15 +0100
          Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 19:08 +0200
            Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-03 19:51 +0100
              Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 21:01 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 14:15 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 18:22 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 15:41 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 19:56 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:58 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:08 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:21 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:27 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 21:20 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 19:17 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 20:45 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 21:30 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:34 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 09:52 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:39 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 19:50 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-04 08:27 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 09:47 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 19:44 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 11:08 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 22:53 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 14:29 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-05 21:54 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 19:48 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:05 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:24 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:32 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 21:54 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 21:25 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:37 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 21:57 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 19:23 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 21:58 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-06 17:19 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 17:28 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-07 09:02 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 19:20 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 19:24 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 18:41 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 18:31 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:46 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 20:09 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 20:47 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2013-04-04 00:42 -0500
                Re: Usefulness of "final" paul.cager@gmail.com - 2013-04-04 01:55 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:45 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 00:46 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:10 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:25 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:44 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:57 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:19 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:35 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 10:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:43 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 16:22 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 16:49 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 18:21 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 18:49 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 05:30 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:10 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:29 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 02:53 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2013-04-04 13:51 -0600
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 13:31 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-06 10:50 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 09:09 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 05:37 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 06:10 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 19:40 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 05:44 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-05 14:08 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 13:33 -0700
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 09:11 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 15:20 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 16:25 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:50 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 18:13 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-06 14:32 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 15:02 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 22:12 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 10:35 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:02 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 13:41 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 13:53 +0200
              Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 23:05 +0200
      Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-02 22:09 +0200
      Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:03 -0400
      Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 21:39 +0200
        Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-07 01:08 +0200
        Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 22:15 -0700
          Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 08:48 +0100
            Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 12:32 -0700
              Re: Inserting In a List "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-07 21:06 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-08 08:40 +0100
        Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 08:55 +0100
          Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 17:54 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 19:53 +0100
              Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-07 17:58 -0300
              Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-08 08:28 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-08 08:54 +0100
                Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-08 19:13 +0200
              Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-12 20:58 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 13:17 -0700
            Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 12:40 -0700
              Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-12 20:47 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 13:14 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2013-04-02 13:53 +0100
  Re: Inserting In a List Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-04-02 07:10 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 10:46 -0700
    Re: Inserting In a List markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-02 11:28 -0700
      Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:00 -0400
  Re: Inserting In a List subhabangalore@gmail.com - 2013-04-03 01:47 -0700
    Re: Inserting In a List Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2013-04-03 10:35 +0100

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