Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #23274

Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List)

From	markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List)
Date	2013-04-03 19:17 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kjino8$frr$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(13 earlier) <515cc46b$0$32111$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <kjigtg$9bd$2@dont-email.me> <515cc8e5$0$32109$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <kjihmr$e2n$1@dont-email.me> <kjikcd$rqd$1@dont-email.me>

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On 4/3/2013 6:20 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>      I'm with Arne.  The cited section uses the word "immutable"
> and "immutability" without defining either.  All it says is that
> "final" can be an aid to implementing immutable objects -- but it
> never says what "immutable" is.

Well, it does.  Section 17.5 has several subsections, and it's defined 
in section 17.5.1.  I feel one really should read all of 17.5 to 
understand final fields however.

> It doesn't even say that "final"
> confers immutability; on the contrary, it says "final fields must
> be *used correctly* [emphasis mine] to provide a guarantee of
> immutability."

OK, that might be part of the problem.  final is necessary but not 
sufficient.  I'll concede that, no problem.  I misspoke if I implied 
otherwise.

>
>      Toward the end of the section, we're told that String is
> "perceived as truly immutable."  So now there are two more notions:
> "truly immutable" as opposed to merely "immutable," and "perceived
> as truly immutable" as opposed to "actually truly immutable, not
> dependent on somebody's perception."  Where does the JLS define how
> these three different kinds of immutability differ?  Where does it
> *define* even one of them?

That's a bit of an issue.  I think they're just using 'perceived' to 
mean visible.  There's a happens-before relationship between the end of 
the ctor and all other threads in the system.  So String is perceived as 
immutable by all threads because its fields are visible.

I think immutable is defined in section 17.5.1, with their "hb(w, f), 
hb(f, a), mc(a, r1), and dereferences(r1, r2)" stuff.  That section is 
as I say clear as mud, and I'm relying on Brian Goetz in JCIP to 
interpret that mess correctly for me.

>
>      Thought experiment: Using the JLS' definition of immutability,
> support or refute "java.lang.String is mutable, because it computes
> its hashCode() lazily and caches it in a non-final field, thereby
> changing the String object's state at the first hashCode() call."

But all threads will see the String's internal char[] to have the same 
values, because it's safely published through a final field.  So all 
threads will calculate the same hash code.  This isn't really "thread 
safe," except that it is because being idempotent counts.  Threads can 
never seen any value for the internally stored hash code except 0 or the 
correctly computed value.

>
>      Thought experiment: Using the JLS' definition of immutability,
> support or refute "All Java objects are mutable, because all have a
> monitor whose state changes every time a synchronized block is
> entered or exited.  The monitor's state affects the behavior of
> all threads attempting to synchronize on the object, so the change
> of state is not strictly internal but is visible to all observers."
>

Refutation: Only objects with proper final field semantics are immutable 
under the JLS's definition.  Only those objects are thread safe even 
without accessing/invoking their monitor; this latter condition was 
specified in that short sentence I quoted at the start of this whole 
discussion.

"final fields also allow programmers to implement thread-safe immutable 
objects without synchronization."

"Without synchronization" is the whole point of the way Java defines 
immutability.

Thread

Inserting In a List subhabangalore@gmail.com - 2013-04-02 03:11 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-04-02 03:59 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-02 08:27 -0300
  Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-02 08:59 -0300
    Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:06 +0000
      Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 18:22 -0400
        Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-02 22:52 +0000
          Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 02:04 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:20 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:03 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 21:26 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 22:29 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:16 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-04-02 20:26 -0500
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 21:29 -0400
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:07 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 05:45 -0300
              Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 15:26 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 18:09 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 00:54 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 20:30 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:35 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-03 20:55 -0300
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 02:00 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 19:49 -0400
            Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-03 22:43 +0000
              Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:08 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-04 00:42 +0000
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:12 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-04 21:47 +0000
                Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:36 +0200
          Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 21:08 -0400
            Re: Inserting In a List Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-04-03 22:37 +0000
              Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 20:50 -0400
  Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-02 14:35 +0200
    Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-02 15:08 +0100
      Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-02 21:06 +0200
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:41 -0400
          Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 08:09 +0200
            Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:13 -0400
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:08 -0400
        Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-03 11:15 +0100
          Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 19:08 +0200
            Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-03 19:51 +0100
              Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-03 21:01 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 14:15 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 18:22 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 15:41 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 19:56 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:58 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:08 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:21 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:27 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 21:20 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 19:17 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 20:45 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 21:30 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:34 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 09:52 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:39 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 19:50 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-04 08:27 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 09:47 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 19:44 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 11:08 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-04 22:53 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 14:29 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-05 21:54 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 19:48 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:05 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:24 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:32 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 21:54 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-03 21:25 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:37 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 21:57 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 19:23 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 21:58 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-06 17:19 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 17:28 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-07 09:02 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 19:20 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 19:24 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 18:41 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 18:31 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 18:46 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 20:09 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 20:47 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2013-04-04 00:42 -0500
                Re: Usefulness of "final" paul.cager@gmail.com - 2013-04-04 01:55 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:45 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 00:46 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:10 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:25 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 16:44 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 01:57 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:19 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:35 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 10:34 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-05 00:43 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 16:22 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 16:49 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-04 18:21 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 18:49 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 05:30 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-03 20:10 -0400
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-03 17:29 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 02:53 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2013-04-04 13:51 -0600
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 13:31 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-06 10:50 -0700
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 09:09 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 05:37 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 06:10 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-04 19:40 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 05:44 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-05 14:08 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 13:33 -0700
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 09:11 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 15:20 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 16:25 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:50 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-06 18:13 +0100
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-06 14:32 -0300
                Re: arrays and variables Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-06 15:02 +0200
                Re: arrays and variables Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-05 22:12 -0300
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 10:35 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 14:02 +0200
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-04 13:41 +0100
                Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-04 13:53 +0200
              Re: Usefulness of "final" (Was: Re: Inserting In a List) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-03 23:05 +0200
      Re: Inserting In a List Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-04-02 22:09 +0200
      Re: Inserting In a List Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-04-02 20:03 -0400
      Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 21:39 +0200
        Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-07 01:08 +0200
        Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 22:15 -0700
          Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 08:48 +0100
            Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 12:32 -0700
              Re: Inserting In a List "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-07 21:06 -0400
              Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-08 08:40 +0100
        Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 08:55 +0100
          Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-07 17:54 +0200
            Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-07 19:53 +0100
              Re: Inserting In a List Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-04-07 17:58 -0300
              Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-08 08:28 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-04-08 08:54 +0100
                Re: Inserting In a List Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-04-08 19:13 +0200
              Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-12 20:58 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 13:17 -0700
            Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 12:40 -0700
              Re: Inserting In a List Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-12 20:47 +0200
                Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 13:14 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2013-04-02 13:53 +0100
  Re: Inserting In a List Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-04-02 07:10 -0700
  Re: Inserting In a List Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 10:46 -0700
    Re: Inserting In a List markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-04-02 11:28 -0700
      Re: Inserting In a List Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:00 -0400
  Re: Inserting In a List subhabangalore@gmail.com - 2013-04-03 01:47 -0700
    Re: Inserting In a List Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2013-04-03 10:35 +0100

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