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Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java)

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Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

(snip, someone wrote)
>>>> In my not particularly humble opinion, Java is too crufty to make for
>>>> a good _introductory_ language. There are too many old sins and too
>>>> many idiosyncrasies in the language that are likely to confuse or
>>>> stump someone who doesn't already know how to program.

(snip, then I wrote)
>>> Compared to what?

(and also wrote)
>>> How about Fortran or C?

>> It's been too long since I worked with Fortran and I don't know
>> anything about the modern Fortrans, so I can't say. Possibly for
>> students who already works with matrices in math, but I suspect that
>> for those cases Matlab (or something similar) would be a better match.

My first language, mostly, was IBM Fortran IV, Fortran 66 with some
useful extensions. Much has been added since, including the most
recent 2008 standard. Fortran 66 is relatively simple, but with 
some strange features left from earlier systems. Still, I didn't
have much trouble learning it during the summer before 9th grade.
(The IBM reference manual was my 8th grade graduation present.)

>> I think the core language of C is small enough that it might work
>> well, as long as the course is targetting low-level hardware (such as
>> an Arduino board) rather than desktop I/O.

> C is rather simple.

It is, but you have to understand pointers earlier than with
most other languages.

> But explaining what is going on with incorrect programs
> is not so fun.

Well, many languages have that problem, in many strange ways.

One that I remember from many years ago, watching others learn
Fortran. In the case of Fortran, it sometimes isn't obvious to
new programmers that you need to dimension an array in a called
subroutine. If you forget, it turns out that the compiler usually
can't detect it, and instead you die in a strange way at run time.
(The compiler instead believes that you passed the address of
a function, and jumps into your array.)

>>> Many languages have parts that make them hard to use, and hard
>>> to learn, but we do it anyway.

>> Sure, but that's not the point. I have nothing against Java as a
>> general programming language. It's just not a particularly good
>> language to use to teach someone basic programming. It's both too big
>> and has too many quirks and kinks to make for a good introduction.

With the appropriate subset, it doesn't seem to me so bad. The base
language, as with C excluding the library, is fairly simple. 

As someone mentioned, you have the complication of octal constants,
but it isn't that hard to learn about that one.

> Medium size language with huge standard library.

> I would say less quirks than most languages.

The library is big, but with a small subset you can do the usual
things that beginning programmers need to do. 

-- glen

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Teaching kids to program (in Java) Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> - 2012-04-12 09:12 +0100
  Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-04-12 08:28 +0000
  Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-12 04:36 -0700
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-12 09:47 -0400
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-12 07:42 -0700
      Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-12 19:41 -0700
      Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-13 21:22 -0300
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> - 2012-04-16 13:53 +0100
  Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-12 13:09 -0400
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-12 13:28 -0400
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-12 19:16 -0400
      Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-12 20:36 -0400
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-12 19:55 -0700
      Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-13 05:03 -0500
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-04-13 10:14 +0000
          Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-13 09:27 -0500
            Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-13 20:42 -0400
              Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-04-14 02:08 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 20:13 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 12:06 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-06 11:38 -0400
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-13 14:06 +0100
          Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-13 09:07 -0500
            Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-13 09:53 -0500
            Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-04-13 10:55 -0500
          Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-13 08:39 -0700
            Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-13 20:47 -0400
              Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-15 20:05 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-17 22:11 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-17 19:57 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-18 19:20 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-18 18:03 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-19 20:15 -0300
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-19 20:08 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-20 12:43 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-04-20 12:58 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-20 15:20 -0500
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-20 13:30 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 20:23 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 12:22 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-06 11:36 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-06 17:10 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 09:43 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-07 18:17 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 20:18 -0400
          Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-13 20:44 -0400
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-13 20:38 -0400
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gunter Herrmann <notformail0106@earthlink.net> - 2012-04-16 15:32 -0400
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-12 19:44 -0700
  Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-04-13 17:59 -0700

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