Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #13521

Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java)

From	Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com>
Subject	Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
References	<pg3do753evmvoql7l2anvnt49qarggqeg6@4ax.com> <jm7290$53c$1@dont-email.me> <4f87624e$0$287$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <UpydndS--INlZBrSnZ2dnUVZ8jadnZ2d@giganews.com> <jm8ua8$7ms$1@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID	<uoedncO905FMqhXSnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@giganews.com> (permalink)
Date	2012-04-13 09:27 -0500

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glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> wrote:
> 
> (snip)
>> In my not particularly humble opinion, Java is too crufty to make for
>> a good _introductory_ language. There are too many old sins and too
>> many idiosyncrasies in the language that are likely to confuse or
>> stump someone who doesn't already know how to program. 
> 
> Compared to what? 

Compared to languages with cleaner designs and to languages
specifically targeted at teaching programming. I'd easily choose
Pascal or (a subset of) Ada over Java for this purpose, and probably
even Lisp or Smalltalk.

> How about Fortran or C?

It's been too long since I worked with Fortran and I don't know
anything about the modern Fortrans, so I can't say. Possibly for
students who already works with matrices in math, but I suspect that
for those cases Matlab (or something similar) would be a better match.

I think the core language of C is small enough that it might work
well, as long as the course is targetting low-level hardware (such as
an Arduino board) rather than desktop I/O.

> Many languages have parts that make them hard to use, and hard
> to learn, but we do it anyway.

Sure, but that's not the point. I have nothing against Java as a
general programming language. It's just not a particularly good
language to use to teach someone basic programming. It's both too big
and has too many quirks and kinks to make for a good introduction.

-- 
Leif Roar Moldskred

Thread

Teaching kids to program (in Java) Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> - 2012-04-12 09:12 +0100
  Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-04-12 08:28 +0000
  Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-12 04:36 -0700
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-12 09:47 -0400
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-12 07:42 -0700
      Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-12 19:41 -0700
      Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-13 21:22 -0300
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> - 2012-04-16 13:53 +0100
  Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-12 13:09 -0400
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-12 13:28 -0400
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-12 19:16 -0400
      Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-12 20:36 -0400
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-12 19:55 -0700
      Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-13 05:03 -0500
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-04-13 10:14 +0000
          Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-13 09:27 -0500
            Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-13 20:42 -0400
              Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-04-14 02:08 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 20:13 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 12:06 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-06 11:38 -0400
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-13 14:06 +0100
          Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-13 09:07 -0500
            Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-13 09:53 -0500
            Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-04-13 10:55 -0500
          Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-13 08:39 -0700
            Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-13 20:47 -0400
              Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-15 20:05 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-17 22:11 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-17 19:57 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-18 19:20 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-18 18:03 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-19 20:15 -0300
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-19 20:08 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-20 12:43 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-04-20 12:58 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-20 15:20 -0500
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-20 13:30 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 20:23 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 12:22 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-06 11:36 -0400
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-05-06 17:10 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 09:43 -0700
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-07 18:17 +0000
                Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 20:18 -0400
          Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-13 20:44 -0400
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-13 20:38 -0400
        Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Gunter Herrmann <notformail0106@earthlink.net> - 2012-04-16 15:32 -0400
    Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-12 19:44 -0700
  Re: Teaching kids to program (in Java) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-04-13 17:59 -0700

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