Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #4114

Re: Did the sort do anything?

From	Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Did the sort do anything?
Date	2011-05-15 15:09 +0100
Organization	Stack Usenet News Service
Message-ID	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1105151501220.12373@urchin.earth.li> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <iqbmo6$j47$1@dont-email.me> <iqkt5k$k58$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <iqnh0d$m0m$1@news.albasani.net> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1105151117070.12373@urchin.earth.li> <iqobot$ugm$2@news.albasani.net>

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On Sun, 15 May 2011, Lew wrote:

> Tom Anderson wrote:
>
>> I still prefer Smoothsort. Smoothsort may be brain-freezingly arcane 
>> (i've never managed to implement it correctly!), but is simple, 
>> consistent, and elegant. Timsort is basically a pile of hacks, special 
>> cases, and judiciously-chosen arbitrary constants. Don't get me wrong, 
>> i think it's a brilliant piece of work, and it is clearly very 
>> effective - but it's a work of software engineering rather than 
>> computer science, and i like my sorts to be scientific!
>
> How is "brain-freezingly arcane" compatible with "simple"?

Edsger Dijkstra wrote the formal definition in a language of his own 
invention (which has dynamic scoping) using a notation you can't even 
completely write in ASCII, and accompanied it with a description in 
English couched in terms of a mix of mathematical abstractions and 
whimsical terminology he made up on the fly:

http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD07xx/EWD796a.html

It is possible to rephrase it more comprehensibly:

http://www.keithschwarz.com/smoothsort/

As well as that initial barrier, there is the fact that although it's 
fairly easy to see what the algorithm is doing, it's much harder to 
understand why it works. Keith Schwarz has done a bang-up job of 
explaining it, though.

Basically, Dijkstra was a brilliant guy, but a bit of a bastard.

tom

-- 
a moratorium on the future

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Did the sort do anything? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-10 08:06 -0700
  Re: Did the sort do anything? markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-10 08:48 -0700
    Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-14 15:33 +1200
      Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-14 08:56 -0400
        Re: Did the sort do anything? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-05-14 13:54 +0000
          Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-15 11:16 +1200
      Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-14 23:24 -0400
        Re: Did the sort do anything? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-15 11:20 +0100
          Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-15 07:00 -0400
            Re: Did the sort do anything? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-15 15:09 +0100
              Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-16 14:28 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-15 22:38 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-16 19:11 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-16 03:47 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-16 14:14 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-15 22:40 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-16 21:31 +0100
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-17 09:12 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-16 17:24 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-17 13:26 +0100
          Re: Did the sort do anything? markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-15 04:56 -0700
            Re: Did the sort do anything? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-15 15:12 +0100
              Re: Did the sort do anything? markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-15 07:52 -0700
          Re: Did the sort do anything? Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-18 11:14 -0400
            Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-18 13:02 -0400
            Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-20 18:49 +1200
              Re: Did the sort do anything? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-05-20 00:06 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-20 22:37 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-20 07:09 -0400
  Re: Did the sort do anything? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-05-10 16:11 +0000
  Re: Did the sort do anything? Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-10 21:26 +0200
    Re: Did the sort do anything? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-11 21:38 +0100
      Re: Did the sort do anything? Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 23:27 +0200
      Re: Did the sort do anything? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-13 07:40 -0700
        Re: Did the sort do anything? Spock <spock@starfleet.ufp> - 2011-05-13 16:56 -0400
        Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-15 13:58 +1200
          Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-14 23:27 -0400
  Re: Did the sort do anything? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-05-11 20:40 +0200
    Re: Did the sort do anything? Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-12 10:40 -0400
      Re: Did the sort do anything? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-05-13 03:50 -0700
      Re: Did the sort do anything? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-13 07:46 -0700
        Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-16 14:32 +1200
          Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-15 19:50 -0700
            Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-16 17:57 +1200
              Re: Did the sort do anything? "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2011-05-16 03:35 -0400
              Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-16 03:44 -0400
              Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-16 03:53 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-17 00:02 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2011-05-16 08:05 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-17 09:12 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-16 17:32 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? thoolen <thoolen@tholenbot.thorium> - 2011-05-16 18:09 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-16 10:02 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-16 07:16 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-17 09:11 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-16 15:00 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-16 21:08 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-17 19:11 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-17 02:34 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-17 07:19 -0400
                [OT] Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-17 06:52 -0700
                Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-05-18 01:22 -0700
                Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-18 03:42 -0700
                Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid> - 2011-05-18 11:53 +0100
                Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-18 13:07 -0400
                Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-18 10:37 -0700
                Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Heike Svensson <hsvensson.1093x1_q@hotmail.nospam.com.please> - 2011-05-19 01:29 -0400
                Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-05-19 08:28 +0200
                Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-19 08:50 -0400
                OT: National stereotypes. Was Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid> - 2011-05-23 10:25 +0100
                Re: OT: National stereotypes. Was Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-23 09:05 -0400
                Re: OT: National stereotypes. Was Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid> - 2011-05-23 17:17 +0100
                Re: OT: National stereotypes. Was Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-23 14:43 -0400
                Re: OT: National stereotypes. Was Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> - 2011-05-23 08:27 -0700
                Re: OT: National stereotypes. Was Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid> - 2011-05-23 17:39 +0100
                Re: OT: National stereotypes. Was Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re:   Did the sort do anything? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-05-23 19:16 +0200
                Re: OT: National stereotypes. Was Re: Naming conventions. Was: Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-23 14:47 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Boojum <boojum42@gmai1.c0m> - 2011-05-18 07:19 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-20 18:46 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-20 07:10 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-17 07:16 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-17 06:56 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-20 18:46 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-20 07:11 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-20 05:00 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-20 05:20 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-21 09:56 +1200
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-20 18:12 -0400
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-20 21:26 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Gheerax IV <gheerax.4@gmail.invalid> - 2011-05-17 06:58 +0000
                Re: Did the sort do anything? Unitary Matrix <umatrix668@gmail.com> - 2011-05-17 00:13 -0700
                Re: Did the sort do anything? markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-17 07:41 -0700
    Re: Did the sort do anything? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-13 07:42 -0700
      Re: Did the sort do anything? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-05-13 21:28 +0200
  Re: Did the sort do anything? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-11 21:32 +0100

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