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Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please

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On 6/27/2012 6:11 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> On 6/27/2012 2:09 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> ...
>>       No, *your* overtly anti-social and self-aggrandising approach is
>> not suitable.  I gave up on Java, partly because the language making
>> certain things that I need awkward to do and partly because of the
>> snarking.
>
> I have largely given up on this newsgroup, and only drop in
> occasionally, because of the tone of the discussion. In any case, this
> newsgroup is dying from lack of new regulars, and I think that is a key
> reason. If you get jumped on the first time you ask a question, why come
> back? When I first showed up in comp.lang.java as a very experienced
> programmer but new to Java, my questions were answered politely and my
> mistakes were handled gently.

I don't see it that way.

First.

The participation in most usenet groups is dropping. It is not
specific to cljp.

ISP's are dropping NNTP servers. Most people use various web
fora like stackoverflow.com etc..

Second.

I think newbies that are interested in learning usually get
an acceptable treatment. There may be exceptions. And maybe
it could be improved. But overall I think rudeness against
that group is the exception not the rule.

Who collects plenty of flaming is really another group. It is
the "OOP is just overhead", "patterns are useless", "I don't
want to follow the standard coding convention", "I don't want
to use the Java library because my own is better", "unit tests
are useless", "ORM's are useless", "make is the rigth build
toll for Java" etc. that gets the heat. And
it is not when they first state their opinion they get flamed,
but when they get explained why it is bad often with references
to well known sources and turn out not to be interested in
listening then the flame throwers get turned on.

And I believe that is warranted. cljp should be a group that
steer newbies towards becoming programmers suitable for the
job market with a healthy understanding of what is considered
best practice. cljp should not throw out the last 20 or 30
years of experiences gained often at huge costs.

It is probably not good for cljp's reputation that a huge
portion of posts are really long flame wars between
best practices and excentric ideas.

But I don't think it would be good for cljp's reputation if
half the recommendations was to write Java like poorly written
Cobol and nobody objected against it.

The problem is probably unsolvable.

I don't think we could get that certain group to migrate
to a new c.l.j.excentric group where unusual not recommended
ways of doing things should be the main topic.

Arne

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I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-25 15:31 -0700
  Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-25 16:15 -0700
    Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-25 16:47 -0700
      Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-25 18:10 -0700
        Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 13:04 -0700
          Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-26 14:01 -0700
          Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-26 17:21 -0400
            Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 14:44 -0700
              Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 14:56 -0700
              Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-27 18:13 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 18:48 -0700
              Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-06-27 15:21 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Jail Bush Cronies <do.not@ask.me> - 2012-06-27 18:46 -0400
          Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-26 14:25 -0700
            Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 14:32 -0700
              Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-26 17:49 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 15:20 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 17:30 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 18:09 -0700
        Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-02 11:21 +0200
      Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-25 18:36 -0700
        Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 13:24 -0700
          Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 13:49 -0700
          Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-26 14:04 -0700
            Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 14:34 -0700
              Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-26 16:26 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 16:47 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-26 20:04 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-26 22:18 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-06-26 22:59 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-27 21:30 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-02 11:32 +0200
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-02 09:47 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-26 20:06 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 11:42 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-27 14:09 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-06-27 15:11 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-27 21:59 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Devil's Advocate <legal@hell.org> - 2012-06-27 22:17 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-27 21:40 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-27 19:12 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-27 20:47 -0500
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-27 19:12 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-27 21:28 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-27 19:14 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Hydrangea <hydrangea393@foo.mail.quuzzle.edu> - 2012-06-27 22:28 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-27 21:05 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-27 22:32 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-27 21:08 -0700
          Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-26 14:10 -0700
            Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 14:35 -0700
              Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-26 17:51 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 15:20 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-26 19:35 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 16:44 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-26 22:06 -0400
          Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-06-27 08:15 -0700
        Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 18:36 -0700
          Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 18:54 -0700
            Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please B1ll G4tes <wm.gat3s@micro5oft.quux> - 2012-06-27 22:23 -0400
              Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-28 09:55 -0700
            Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-28 04:02 -0700
              Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Mike Winter <mlwinter@gmail.com> - 2012-06-28 04:55 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-28 07:33 -0700
                [OT] Message IDs (Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please) Mike Winter <mlwinter@gmail.com> - 2012-06-28 08:45 -0700
                Re: [OT] Message IDs (Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please) markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-28 09:39 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-28 09:44 -0700
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-06-28 12:51 -0400
                Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-28 09:58 -0700
              Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-28 07:32 -0700
  Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-06-26 03:49 -0700
    Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 13:59 -0700
  Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-06-29 08:12 -0700
    Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-29 10:02 -0700
    Re: I need a different approach - suggestions please bilsch <bilsch01@gmail.com> - 2012-06-29 13:07 -0700

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