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Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best?

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Lew wrote:
> On 07/04/2012 01:01 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Wed, 04 Jul 2012 12:32:58 -0700, Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/4/2012 10:47 AM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 04 Jul 2012 10:14:54 -0700, Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/4/2012 10:04 AM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>         Knowing something of the layer below (or even more) can 
>>>>>> help one
>>>>>> get more out of the system.  If you insist on using black boxes and
>>>>>> keeping it that way, then you do not understand the system.
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> I've treated emacs and other tools as black boxes on systems I
>>>>> understood at every level down to details of the processor design.
>>>>
>>>>        If you know the system to that level, it is not a black box.
>>>
>>> If you define "black box" in such a way that it is not possible to treat
>>> something as a black box even if one understands the system, then "If
>>> you insist on using black boxes and keeping it that way, then you do not
>>> understand the system." is indeed a tautology.
>>
>>       No.  If you know the inner details, it is going to help in using
>> such a system.  You do not just turn off your knowledge.  You will not
>> have a black box in that case.
>>
>>       This is different from black box testing where you can do so.
>> (Just base your tests on use cases, not the algorithm.  (Of course, I
>> like white box testing, too.))
>>
>>> I prefer a more functional view of "black box" in which one can treat
>>> something as a black box by only considering and using its external
>>> features, regardless of deeper understanding.
>>
>>       I do that, too.
> 
> I detect common ground between your viewpoints, with differences in the 
> nuances.
> 
> Patricia's point of view relates to trust of a tool or layer.
> 
> You can rest on what an IDE does, as far as its functions go. You don't 
> question its ability to syntax-color your source beyond the settings 
> screen. That's a black-box approach.
> 
> Many recommend, however, that you understand what it does generate for 
> source code, build scripts, server configuration, and other tasks that 
> one normally would script, or perform through an external 
> service-management interface. NetBeans Ant scripts are an infamous 
> example, as are Eclipse .classpath files. Both of these work in 
> IDE-osyncratic ways that tend to play poorly with industry standards.
> 
> Ditto the GUI generators. Many laud the Matisse generator built in to 
> NetBeans, but its code style is its own. What if you gotcherself a 
> corner case?
> 
> At this point you lose trust in the IDE at least somewhat. While you 
> have no doubt that the symbols you type into a dot-java file will 
> persist to disk safely, you might question its choices for variable 
> scope or 'toString()' implementation.
> 
> The common ground, then, is to blackbox what you trust and whitebox or 
> greybox what you doubt, to varying degrees. "Trust but verify", in the 
> language of arms agreements.
> 

I agree.

Patricia

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Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? ericmiranda7@gmail.com - 2012-06-30 23:32 -0700
  Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-01 03:53 -0700
  Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-01 07:37 -0700
  Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Patrick May <patrick@softwarematters.org> - 2012-07-01 14:20 -0400
    Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-01 14:44 -0700
      Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Patrick May <patrick@softwarematters.org> - 2012-07-03 20:48 -0400
        Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-03 19:55 -0700
          Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Nigel Wade <nmw@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2012-07-04 09:26 +0100
            Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Patrick May <patrick@softwarematters.org> - 2012-07-05 13:36 -0400
              Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-05 13:25 -0700
              Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Joseph Parkton <jparkton@gmail.com> - 2012-07-19 21:54 -0700
          Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-04 10:04 -0700
            Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-04 10:14 -0700
              Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-04 10:47 -0700
                Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-04 12:32 -0700
                Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-04 13:01 -0700
                Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-04 16:03 -0700
                Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-04 17:38 -0700
                Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-06 08:29 -0700
  Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2012-08-21 16:21 +0300
    Re: Whay IDE am I supposed to use/is the best? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-08-21 11:47 -0700

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