Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.forth > #24436

Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge

Show all headers | View raw

On 2013-07-12, Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> In article <kro6kk$olm$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
> Bill Richards  <billrich@gmx.com> wrote:
>>On 2013-07-12, Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> Very nice, but the first educational effort must be like jonesforth,
>>> brutally concrete and single minded. There is but One True Operating
>>> System Linux and fasm is Its Tool. Death to the infidels!  (Oops.)
>>
>>These are good choices. I agree Linux is the obvious target for such a
>>project since people who write code overwhelmingly use Linux on x86 these
>>days and I said so earlier. Reading Randy Hyde's comments in his HLA
>>Reference manual starting around 1.7 I wonder if HLA might be a better
>>choice than fasm since the yourforth project is targeted at beginners and
>>focused on clear presentation. Professor Hyde's experience was people with
>>HLL programming experience (Pascal, C, C++, etc.) were able to "get their
>>heads around the HLA code" much faster than when he used to teach with
>>MASM. I like fasm because it's elemental and lets you produce an executable
>>in one go, but hla does that also. I can see  where fasm ought to be very
>>appealing to Forthers but beginners using this project aren't likely to be
>>aware of the beauty of a partially self-hosted Forth hosted in a fully
>>self-hosting assembler ;-)
>
> There will be persuasive arguments in the source addressing why it is done
> the way it is done, including the choice of fasm.

Fair enough. Can't wait to see!

>>
>>Hyde does argue rather pursuasively for his approach and has the rubber
>>meets the road experience to be able to say it. If one doesn't get too
>>sidetracked by personal feelings on what an assembler out to be and just
>>wants a low-level language that also happens to present things in a way many
>>people are used to viewing them the idea would seem to be very practical for
>>this project, almost perfect really.
>>
>>However HLA will make porting yourforth to non-x86 targets much harder than
>>using g(h)as(tly) or even fasm on Linux but again not many people have the
>>other targets listed who don't also have an x86 desktop computer.
>
> jonesforth is about leaving out layers. assembler is a layer but thank
><theity> there is only the Forth layer above it. HLA needs a "true assembler"
> layer below HLA, that is not under control. So it is a bit against the
> teaching purpose.

That was true of V1 which was really more of a preprocessor. V2 of HLA is a
real assembler and emits elf object directly. It only needs a linker. It has
the options to produce fasm nasm or masm output usable on windows or gas
output for Linux. The default on Linux is to produce and ELF object.

> I've some experience with porting using a similar model. As Elizabeth
> Rather has pointed out at occasion too, differences between OS-es count
> for at least as much effort as between assembly languages

Yes quite so.

Thanks,

Bill

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Carsten Strotmann <cas@strotmann.de> - 2013-07-11 22:38 +0200
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-11 14:08 -0700
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-12 01:53 +0000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-07-11 23:49 -0700
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-12 12:24 +0000
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2013-07-12 12:29 +0000
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-12 01:42 +0000
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-11 19:42 -0700
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-12 02:56 +0000
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-11 20:16 -0700
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-12 03:14 -0400
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-12 00:35 -0700
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-12 04:02 -0400
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-07-12 09:08 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-13 06:16 -0400
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-12 03:02 -0500
                yourforth : progress report albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-01 11:00 +0000
                Re: yourforth : progress report "David N. Williams" <williams@umich.edu> - 2013-08-01 08:13 -0400
                Re: yourforth : progress report m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-08-01 07:22 -0700
                Re: yourforth : progress report albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-01 19:20 +0000
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-07-12 06:10 +0000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-12 12:37 +0000
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-07-12 12:56 +0000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-12 13:55 +0000
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-07-12 14:22 +0000
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-07-12 14:30 +0000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-12 11:12 -0700
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-12 19:01 +0000
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-12 23:05 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-18 19:38 +0000
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-07-12 00:10 -0700
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-12 16:55 +0000
    jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-18 19:18 +0000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-07-18 11:18 -1000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-18 23:23 +0200
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-07-19 00:47 -0700
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-07-19 00:54 -0700
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-19 09:50 +0000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-19 05:24 -0500
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-07-22 09:47 +0000

csiph-web