Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful
Date	2013-04-03 22:24 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<kji35a$4nd$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <2013Mar20.130344@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <kicso8$jga$1@online.de> <2013Mar30.174002@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <kjajcv$30k$1@online.de> <2013Apr3.181309@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

Show all headers | View raw

Anton Ertl wrote:
>>  In any case, the definition of DEFERS can be fixed, as we probably
>>want to entitle people to ' special-compilation semantics, and then do
>>what they like with it.
> 
> So you propose changing COMPILE, in a way that will break existing
> programs (like DEFERS).  Maybe you should move to the GCC team.

No, there's a constructed possibility that it changes the semantics of 
existing programs, which is very unlikely, because assigning a special-
compilation semantics word to a DEFERred word already results in a program 
that will not do what the user expects.  In any case, DEFERS has been fixed, 
and now uses ]] LITERAL EXECUTE [[ instead of COMPILE,.  That's a tiny bit 
slower than before.

Are you grumpy, because I removed your solution to state-smart words from 
the system?  I didn't like it from the beginning, and I was quite grumpy 
when you introduced it, if you remember it.  It didn't solve my problems, 
which is mostly stuff in the BerndOOF code - state-smart CREATE DOES> words.  
It did solve the problem of a few words, like TO, S" and IS.  As Andrew puts 
it, we have all different needs, and need to acknowledge that.  I'm 
implementing this, because my need isn't satisfied by your solution - 
neither was MPE's need, which is why they implemented that smart COMPILE, 15 
years ago.  As a result, it might break some of your code, but not having it 
makes MPE's code impossible.  Go try and test it, and report the problems so 
that we can find solutions.

The new systems solves a lot of other problems, including problems I had 
with the recognizer - e.g. how to execute >R in the interpreter.  As the old 
monotoken couldn't be executed (the nt), this required some stunt that 
wasn't working reliable.  To make the recognizers work fully featured 
(including stuff like interpreted >R, which is a Gforth feature and removing 
it is not an option) it requires to have an executable monotoken.

So if we fall back to your solution, we have not only to take out the smart 
COMPILE,, but also the recognizers, or at least the interpreter >R R>, which 
is also very useful, because you can interactively try code that is using 
the return stack, as long as it fits into one line.

So I really had to take a typical engineering decision, make a compromise, 
and decided against your usage of COMPILE, to compile the interpretation 
semantics of a combined word into another word.  The benefits really 
outweight that particular loss.

I like the monotoken with smart compile, system, because it allows to talk 
about the semantics in a way that doesn't need a stateful text interpreter.  
That has a lot of benefits.  E.g. the recognizer in Gforth is completely 
state-less.  It just takes a word from the input stream and returns a token 
(plus maybe additional things).  This returned token is an Xt.  The consumer 
of this token can now decide whether to interpret, compile, or postpone this 
token (or TO to it), so the consumer is stateful.

One common argument against language standards is that they inhibit 
progress.  That was true e.g. for the Forth-83 standard - progress was only 
possible by leaving that standard.  The ANS Forth standard, by and large, 
and very intentinally wasn't made to inhibit progress.

IMHO, you are reading a bit too much into the standard here.  You read into 
the standard that a state-smart implementation of S" is non-standard.  Forth 
Inc's still is just that.  Now you read into the standard that a intelligent 
compile, implementation of S" is non-standard, which is how MPE did it for 
15 years now (before, it was state-smart).  "The only way is my way" doesn't 
work here.  I can understand a bit that you are grumpy, because your way has 
been eliminated in favor to MPE's way, but all three ways IMHO are actually 
standard; there's no need to tighten up *this* part of the standard, because 
there 's no "rough consensus" yet.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:27 +0100
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:49 -0500
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 11:09 +0000
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 10:25 -0500
        Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:08 +0100
          Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 13:04 -0500
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:12 +0100
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:39 -0500
          Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-20 19:22 +0000
        Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 17:35 +0000
          Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-31 08:51 -0500
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-02 15:50 +0000
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:16 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-03 11:57 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-03 10:25 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-03 16:45 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-03 15:12 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-04 15:29 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-05 09:11 -0500
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-20 10:27 -0700
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 12:03 +0000
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:47 +0100
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 16:40 +0000
        Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-01 02:12 +0200
          Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-01 16:58 +0000
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-02 04:20 +0200
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-01 16:39 -1000
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-02 14:15 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-02 21:12 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-04 13:58 +0000
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-02 04:17 -0500
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-02 15:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:36 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-03 04:10 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-03 04:03 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-03 21:14 +0200
          Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-03 16:13 +0000
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-03 11:54 -0500
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-03 22:24 +0200
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-04-04 11:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-04 18:13 +0200
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-04 15:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-04 22:11 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-04-04 21:35 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-04 23:06 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-04-05 10:57 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-05 14:47 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-05 14:28 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-06 03:35 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-04-08 23:50 -0400
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-04-08 23:49 -0400
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-04-05 02:49 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-05 14:55 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-05 22:05 +0200

csiph-web