Re: Quotations revisited

From	stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Quotations revisited
Message-ID	<5004174a.195180292@192.168.0.50> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <58811288968435@frunobulax.edu> <P7qdnXtZvtOlwZ7NnZ2dnUVZ_rqdnZ2d@supernews.com> <EJKdnSqz3b8mQp7NnZ2dnUVZ8uudnZ2d@supernews.com> <5003fbff.188189528@192.168.0.50> <k66dncGQ7qcylpnNnZ2dnUVZ8umdnZ2d@supernews.com>
Date	2012-07-16 14:05 +0000

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On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:40:15 -0500, Andrew Haley
<andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:

>For example, quotations provide a portable way to do the trickery of
>?PREFIX in
...
>: 2op-r/m       \ op1 op2 reg -- ; reg/mem16 --
>  create
>    , , ,
>  does>
>    :[
>    ...                         \ lay the code
>    ]; ?prefix
>;

>You'd not need to turn off your optimizer, because there is no
>abnormal control flow.  And, a big bonus for the maintainer of this
>code, you can see at the point of calling ?PREFIX what is going on.
>This alone is worth it, IMO.

The suggestion is that the "abnormal control flow" is hidden by
the quotation. In this particular case the partitioning is also
avoided because the quotation provides it.

>There clearly is a need for this kind of thing, or you wouldn't have
>seen it.

Agreed.

>Yes, we must resist pointless syntactic sugar, but we must surely also
>avoid Not Invented Here Syndrome.

I have very little against quotations except creeping complexity.
However, nearly all the arguments I see in favour of quotations
are to do with syntactic sugar. There's almost always an existing
way to do it except in the ?PREFIX case. I don't believe that
the ?PREFIX case justifies a new mechanism. The particular 
implementation of ?PREFIX was presented by Bob Smith 25 years 
ago and I'm the only person who discusses it. The LIST>
example raises essentially the same issues. That makes two
of us. Given the amount of work to implement quotations
across all systems, it can be argued that we should go back
to the traditional Forth position of accepting a bit of
implementation-specific code; always providing of course that
it has been documented.

I have a very different position on closures. Given that the Forth
community has not established common practice for OOP over the
last 30 years, closures are just "look how clever I am" fodder.

Stephen

-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

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Quotations revisited mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-14 15:55 +0200
  Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-15 19:26 +0000
    Re: Quotations revisited Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-15 23:53 +0200
    Re: Quotations revisited mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-15 23:54 +0200
      Re: Quotations revisited Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-16 00:48 +0200
        Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-22 15:01 +0000
          Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:49 +0000
            Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-23 21:39 +0000
              Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 13:13 +0000
        Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-22 11:07 -0500
          Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-22 10:21 -0700
            Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-22 12:35 -0500
              Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-22 11:39 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-22 15:16 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-22 14:35 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 04:18 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-23 12:58 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:55 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-23 05:45 -0700
            Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-27 12:41 +0000
      Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-15 14:11 -1000
        Re: Quotations revisited "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-07-16 07:47 +0200
          Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 13:56 +0000
            Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-16 07:20 -1000
              Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 13:49 +0000
        Re: Quotations revisited Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-16 02:32 -0700
          Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-27 12:58 +0000
        Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 04:32 -0500
          Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 11:41 +0000
            Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 07:40 -0500
              Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 14:05 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 09:20 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 15:46 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 11:33 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 15:32 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 17:56 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-16 23:37 +0200
          Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-27 13:05 +0000
            Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-27 08:21 -0500
      Re: Quotations revisited Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2012-07-16 10:14 +0200
      Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 04:23 -0500
        Re: Quotations revisited m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2012-07-16 03:39 -0700
          Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 07:09 -0500
            Re: Quotations revisited mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-16 23:47 +0200
              Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 04:14 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-07-17 17:39 +0200
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 12:18 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-17 20:26 +0200
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 16:21 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-19 15:58 -0700
      Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 14:05 +0000
    Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 12:47 +0000
      Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 08:56 -0500
      Re: Quotations revisited Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-07-16 15:04 +0100
        Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 09:23 -0500
          Re: Quotations revisited Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-07-16 17:38 +0100
            Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 12:58 -0500
        Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 14:56 +0000
      Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-16 22:53 +0000
        Re: Quotations revisited BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 19:59 -0700
          Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-16 17:04 -1000
            Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 06:51 +0000
              Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-16 21:39 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 07:48 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-16 22:24 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 10:48 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-17 08:19 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-18 01:31 +0400
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 16:11 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-19 12:41 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-21 01:24 +0400
                Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-20 16:20 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-21 03:59 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-21 21:33 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-22 01:35 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-22 21:19 +0400
                Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-22 08:15 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-22 11:48 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-07-22 21:48 +0200
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-22 15:22 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-22 14:50 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-22 15:08 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-22 15:20 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-23 03:29 +0400
                Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-22 14:22 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-23 05:46 +0400
                Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-22 21:46 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-25 03:31 +0400
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:50 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-23 07:57 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-25 03:38 +0400
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 13:01 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 12:10 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-21 09:19 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 18:58 +0200
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-22 04:24 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-22 14:25 +0200
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-22 11:11 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 19:29 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:31 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 12:21 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 17:32 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:23 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-24 03:28 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 13:15 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-25 11:47 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 13:06 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-26 09:50 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 15:11 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-26 11:06 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 16:46 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-27 04:52 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-26 09:48 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-27 14:51 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-28 08:29 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-29 20:55 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-30 04:40 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:17 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-22 18:41 -0400
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:53 +0000
            Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-17 12:22 +0000
              Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 07:30 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-17 06:34 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 09:04 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-18 07:07 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-07-18 17:43 +0200
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-18 09:29 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-07-18 20:59 +0200
                Re: Quotations revisited Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-07-18 21:14 +0200
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 16:05 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-20 14:50 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-20 15:08 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 11:27 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:28 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-23 19:41 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-18 10:18 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 17:00 +0000
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-19 15:34 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-19 16:08 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 20:09 +0200
  Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 12:01 +0000
    Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-16 10:42 -0700
      Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 18:06 +0000
        Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-16 11:08 -1000
          Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 21:38 +0000
            Re: Quotations revisited Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 00:29 +0200
              Re: Quotations revisited "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-16 12:38 -1000
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 04:20 -0500
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-17 03:21 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-17 03:14 -0700
                Re: Quotations revisited Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:58 +0200
                Re: Quotations revisited Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 13:05 -0500
  Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 11:12 +0000
    Re: Quotations revisited Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-20 05:40 -0700
      Re: Quotations revisited stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 15:55 +0000
    Re: Quotations revisited Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-22 20:54 -0700
      Re: Quotations revisited Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-25 03:55 +0400

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