Re: ENVIRONMENT?

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: ENVIRONMENT?
Date	2012-07-06 15:48 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2012Jul6.174838@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References	<f7528036-6314-419c-9e10-4b095531abff@z19g2000vbe.googlegroups.com> <2012Jul3.172921@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <d87dab3b-efb6-4e35-9d2d-7850f1ff72f6@a16g2000vby.googlegroups.com>

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Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>If something in the standard is just going to be ignored, one has to
>ask if it deserves a place in the standard!

Yes, it looks like it did not achieve the things it was intended to
achieve.  As a consequence, there is now Bernd's RfD.

It is little used, and even some big systems treat some standard
queries as unknown.  I am not sure which is the chicken and which is
the egg, but I think there are several reasons beyond that:

* It's cumbersome to use, in particulkar due to the possibility of
  "unknown" as result.

* There is often no good way to deal with unknown or negative results:
  If the program gets "unknown" as result for querying for the file
  wordset, how should it react?  And if it learns that it is not
  present, what should it do then?

So why bother with most of the queries at all?  If a word is not
present, the text interpreter will pinpoint that very nicely (whereas
with a wordset query it is unclear which words are needed).

Ok, if a buffer is too small, one might get a proper error message
instead of some memory curruption, but in many cases the needed buffer
size is not known in advance, so checking that is, again, cumbersome.

As for why ENVIRONMENT? is in CORE: If it was ever to achieve what it
was intended to do, it had to be in CORE (and [IF] etc. should have
been there, too); otherwise a program could fail just because it calls
ENVIRONMENT?, even though the things it checks for are present in the
system.

Concerning catering for small-memory systems, that's nonsense: You
don't run widely-portable code on such platforms (because such code
contains too much generality costing too much memory), and Forth
systems on such platforms generally do not conform with the standard,
because nobody runs widely-portable code on them anyway. They may keep
close in those parts that they implement, but they don't implement
everything (e.g., not ENVIRONMENT?).

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2012: http://www.euroforth.org/ef12/

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ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-03 05:03 -0700
  Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-03 07:45 -0500
  Re: ENVIRONMENT? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-03 15:29 +0000
    Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 01:52 -0700
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 04:12 -0500
        Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 02:37 -0700
          Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 05:01 -0500
            Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 03:54 -0700
              Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 06:52 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 05:21 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 05:19 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 07:42 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 06:47 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 09:42 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 08:06 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-04 22:05 +0200
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 08:14 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-05 16:48 +0000
            Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 04:00 -0700
              Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 06:53 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 05:20 -0700
              Re: ENVIRONMENT? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-04 12:31 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 08:07 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 07:16 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-04 17:22 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 07:12 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 09:47 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 08:14 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 11:53 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-04 17:37 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-04 12:46 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-04 21:59 +0200
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-05 02:36 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-04 13:31 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-05 02:06 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-05 02:33 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-05 12:12 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-05 07:50 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-05 14:15 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-05 15:31 +0200
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-05 14:33 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-06 00:43 +0200
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-06 15:37 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-05 09:46 -0500
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 12:44 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 07:08 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-04 17:31 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-05 16:44 +0000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-04 08:30 -1000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-05 02:43 +0000
          Re: ENVIRONMENT? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-04 08:16 -1000
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-04 11:57 -0700
        Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 12:33 -0700
          Re: ENVIRONMENT? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-04 13:04 -0700
            Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 13:28 -0700
            Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 13:36 -0700
              Re: ENVIRONMENT? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-04 10:49 -1000
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 13:58 -0700
                Re: ENVIRONMENT? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-04 22:07 +0000
                Standards Body Attendance (was Re: ENVIRONMENT?) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-05 05:21 -0700
                Re: Standards Body Attendance (was Re: ENVIRONMENT?) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-05 15:44 +0000
                Re: Standards Body Attendance (was Re: ENVIRONMENT?) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-06 10:35 -0700
              Re: ENVIRONMENT? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-07-04 22:50 +0200
              Re: ENVIRONMENT? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-04 16:30 -0700
          Re: ENVIRONMENT? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-05 02:33 +0000
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-06 15:48 +0000
        Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-06 11:47 -0700
          Re: ENVIRONMENT? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-06 14:07 -0700
        Re: ENVIRONMENT? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-06 23:55 +0200
  Re: ENVIRONMENT? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-03 18:24 +0000
    Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 01:55 -0700
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-05 00:19 -0700
    Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 02:29 -0700
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-04 15:53 +0000
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-07-04 18:03 +0200
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-06 15:42 +0000
        Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-06 11:41 -0700
          Re: ENVIRONMENT? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-06 14:14 -0700
          Re: ENVIRONMENT? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-06 23:51 +0200
          Re: ENVIRONMENT? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-07 09:24 +0000
  Re: ENVIRONMENT? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-03 21:46 -0700
    Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 02:04 -0700
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-04 04:30 -0500
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 02:32 -0700
      Re: ENVIRONMENT? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-04 16:00 +0000
        Re: ENVIRONMENT? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-04 08:37 -0700

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