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Groups > comp.lang.c > #380602 > unrolled thread

iso646.h

Started byLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
First post2024-01-22 01:51 +0000
Last post2024-01-25 15:02 +0100
Articles 20 on this page of 649 — 20 participants

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  iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-22 01:51 +0000
    Re: iso646.h Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-01-22 02:00 +0000
    Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-21 21:48 -0500
      Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-22 05:23 +0000
    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-22 09:30 +0100
      Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-22 16:24 +0000
        Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-22 20:34 +0000
          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-22 13:22 -0800
            Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-22 22:07 +0000
              Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-22 14:56 -0800
                Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-22 23:44 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-23 00:10 +0000
      Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-22 20:34 +0000
        Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-22 21:32 +0000
        Re: iso646.h Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-22 23:08 +0000
          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-22 23:37 +0000
            Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-23 00:12 +0000
            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-23 06:54 +0100
              Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 06:05 +0000
                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 09:34 +0100
                Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 15:43 +0000
        Re: iso646.h Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-01-22 20:23 -0800
        Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-23 06:47 +0100
          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 21:50 +0000
            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 08:59 +0100
        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-23 09:24 +0100
          Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-23 21:30 +0000
            Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-23 22:03 +0000
            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 08:53 +0100
              Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 07:58 -0800
                Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 20:11 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 12:23 -0800
                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-24 21:55 +0100
                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-25 07:22 +0100
                  Re: iso646.h Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-01-24 20:25 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 00:17 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-01-25 00:50 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-25 01:23 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 18:30 -0800
                      Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-25 01:33 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 21:20 +0000
              Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 16:56 +0000
                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 18:07 +0100
                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 18:12 +0100
                  Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 21:08 +0000
            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-24 10:03 +0100
        Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-23 11:54 +0000
        Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 16:32 +0000
          Re: iso646.h Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-01-23 17:21 +0000
            Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-23 21:49 +0000
            Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 21:52 +0000
              Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 14:51 -0800
                Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 23:33 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 16:16 -0800
                    Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 00:39 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 11:53 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 09:15 +0100
              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 09:02 +0100
            C/CPP macro conventions (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 08:25 +0100
              Re: C/CPP macro conventions (was Re: iso646.h) Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 08:25 +0000
                Re: C/CPP macro conventions (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 10:09 +0100
                Re: C/CPP macro conventions (was Re: iso646.h) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-24 10:13 +0100
                Re: C/CPP macro conventions (was Re: iso646.h) Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-25 23:05 +0000
          Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-23 18:34 +0000
            Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-23 18:52 +0000
              Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-23 14:23 -0500
                Re: iso646.h kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-23 20:32 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 21:52 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-23 22:09 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-23 22:37 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 09:10 +0100
                          Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-24 12:24 -0500
                            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 18:38 +0100
                              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 18:42 +0100
                              Re: iso646.h kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-24 17:49 +0000
                                Re: iso646.h kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-24 18:40 +0000
                                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 20:15 +0000
                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-24 22:01 +0100
                              Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 11:52 -0800
                                Re: iso646.h kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-24 20:03 +0000
                            Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 20:14 +0000
                            Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 21:11 +0000
                              Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-25 00:01 -0500
                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 13:43 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-25 14:19 +0100
                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 15:20 +0100
                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-25 16:40 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-25 13:43 +0000
                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 16:11 +0100
                                Re: iso646.h Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-03 11:35 -0800
                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 09:09 +0100
                  Unix shell conditionals (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 08:38 +0100
                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-23 21:28 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-23 22:00 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-23 22:33 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-23 23:46 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 14:49 -0800
                  Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-23 19:45 -0500
                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 09:28 +0100
            Python (Re: iso646.h) kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-23 19:32 +0000
              Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-23 19:59 +0000
                Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-23 20:18 +0000
                  Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2024-01-24 07:49 -0700
                    Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-24 15:07 +0000
                    Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-01-24 15:17 +0000
                      Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-24 15:46 +0000
                        Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-01-24 16:27 +0000
                          Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-24 19:55 +0000
                            Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-01-24 20:57 +0000
                        Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 20:17 +0000
                          Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-25 12:13 +0000
                            Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-25 14:57 +0000
                              Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 16:17 +0100
                              Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-25 15:52 +0000
                                Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-25 16:14 +0000
                                Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-25 11:27 -0800
                            Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-25 18:06 +0000
                              Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-25 19:35 +0000
                    Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-24 15:56 +0000
              Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 12:09 -0800
                Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 22:00 +0000
                  Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-01-27 22:12 +0000
                    Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-28 00:29 +0000
              Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 21:55 +0000
                Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-23 22:47 +0000
                  Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 15:35 -0800
                    Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 00:41 +0000
                      Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 03:13 +0000
                  Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 23:37 +0000
                    Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-01-26 05:48 -0800
                  Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-23 23:51 +0000
                    Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 16:35 -0800
                      Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 16:40 -0800
                  Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-24 00:06 +0000
                    Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-24 12:37 +0100
                  Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-25 22:55 +0000
              Re: Python (Re: iso646.h) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-01-24 13:30 +0000
            Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 12:13 -0800
              Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 22:01 +0000
                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-23 22:45 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 23:39 +0000
                Re: iso646.h kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-23 22:54 +0000
                Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 15:10 -0800
                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 23:40 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 16:27 -0800
                      Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 00:47 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 17:32 -0800
                          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 02:42 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-23 23:56 -0500
                          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 05:24 +0000
                            Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 21:43 -0800
                              Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 06:35 +0000
                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-24 14:14 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 20:19 +0000
                                Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 07:34 -0800
                      Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-23 23:26 -0500
                        Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-23 20:53 -0800
                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 09:41 +0100
                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 08:15 -0800
                    Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 19:32 +0000
              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 09:06 +0100
                Re: iso646.h Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-01-24 14:17 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 08:30 -0800
                    Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 21:00 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-24 22:13 +0000
                        Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 00:44 +0000
                          Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-25 01:37 +0000
                            Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-01-25 02:20 +0000
                              Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 18:23 -0800
                              Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-25 11:58 +0000
                            Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 02:49 +0000
                              Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 19:09 -0800
                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 17:44 +0100
                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-24 17:27 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-24 20:21 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 12:26 -0800
                    Re: iso646.h Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-01-24 20:31 +0000
                      Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 00:53 +0000
                        Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-25 01:24 +0000
                          Re: COBOL (was Re: iso646.h) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 18:21 -0800
                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-24 22:09 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 23:20 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 15:56 -0800
            Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 12:20 +0000
              Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-24 13:00 +0000
              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-24 14:22 +0100
              Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-24 14:54 +0100
                Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 08:27 -0800
                  Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-24 20:50 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 14:01 +0100
                      Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-25 13:53 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 16:48 +0100
                      Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-25 09:57 -0800
                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 21:07 +0100
                          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 20:18 +0000
                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-26 15:59 +0100
                              Re: Compose Key (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-26 21:22 +0000
                                Re: Compose Key (was Re: iso646.h) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-27 16:17 +0100
                                  Re: Compose Key (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-27 21:28 +0000
                                  Re: Compose Key (was Re: iso646.h) Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> - 2024-01-27 22:38 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 20:08 +0000
                          Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-25 20:30 +0000
                          Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-25 21:13 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 20:06 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-25 21:04 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-25 21:16 +0000
                          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 22:01 +0000
                            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-26 02:11 +0100
                              Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-26 01:19 +0000
                        Operators (Algol 68) (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-26 02:08 +0100
                  Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-25 00:52 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 17:07 -0800
                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-25 07:48 +0100
                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 14:07 +0100
                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-25 14:35 +0100
                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 16:53 +0100
                          Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-25 17:11 +0100
                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 21:11 +0100
                              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-26 02:21 +0100
                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-26 17:01 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-26 18:31 +0100
                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-26 19:59 +0100
                                      Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-26 12:27 -0800
                                        Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-26 22:01 +0100
                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-26 22:30 +0100
                                        Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-26 20:22 -0500
                                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-27 16:43 +0100
                                          Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-28 20:14 +0100
                                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 14:09 +0100
                                    Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-26 20:10 -0500
                                      Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-27 16:44 +0100
                                        Re: Functional Programming (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-27 20:49 +0000
                                          Re: Functional Programming (was Re: iso646.h) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 00:22 +0000
                                            Re: Functional Programming (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-28 01:18 +0000
                                              Re: Functional Programming (was Re: iso646.h) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 02:06 +0000
                                          Re: Functional Programming (was Re: iso646.h) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-28 12:35 +0100
                                            Re: Functional Programming (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-28 20:40 +0000
                                              Re: Functional Programming (was Re: iso646.h) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 09:52 +0100
                                                Re: Functional Programming (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-02 05:13 +0000
                                                  Re: Functional Programming (was Re: iso646.h) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-02 09:21 +0100
                                        Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-28 01:31 -0500
                                          Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-28 12:40 +0100
                      Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-26 21:16 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-26 22:46 +0100
                          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-26 22:41 +0000
                            Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-26 15:41 -0800
                              Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-26 23:51 +0000
                                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-27 01:17 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-27 16:25 +0000
                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-28 18:46 +0100
                          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-26 23:52 +0000
                            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-27 01:27 +0100
                              Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-27 00:38 +0000
                                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-27 11:09 +0100
                                  Re: Localization (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-27 20:58 +0000
                                    Re: Localization (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-28 15:57 +0100
                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-27 16:58 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-27 17:26 +0000
                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-27 18:53 +0100
                                      Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-27 19:39 +0000
                                      Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 17:31 -0800
                                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-28 12:50 +0100
                                    Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-27 20:59 +0000
                                      Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 17:34 -0800
                                        Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-28 01:50 +0000
                                          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 17:53 -0800
                                        Re: iso646.h "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 18:47 -0800
                                      Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-28 12:53 +0100
                                        Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-28 20:43 +0000
                                          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 14:49 -0800
                                            Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-29 00:03 +0000
                                              Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-29 01:24 +0000
                                              Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 17:48 -0800
                                                Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-29 02:17 +0000
                                                  Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 17:06 +0100
                                              Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 17:05 +0100
                                                Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-29 23:56 +0000
                                          Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 13:35 +0100
                                            Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-29 16:23 +0000
                                              Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 18:40 +0100
                                Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 16:33 -0800
                              Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-27 00:42 +0000
                                Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 03:16 +0000
                              Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-27 17:24 +0000
                                Re: Java (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-27 21:04 +0000
                                  [OT] Re: Java (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-28 17:42 +0100
                                    Re: [OT] Re: Java (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-28 20:44 +0000
                                [OT] Usefulness of OO/C++/features (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-28 17:18 +0100
                            Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 03:11 +0000
                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 03:24 +0000
                            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-27 11:43 +0100
                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 11:13 +0000
                                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-27 12:53 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 20:17 +0000
                                    Re: iso646.h Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-01-27 21:40 +0000
                                      Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-28 00:31 +0000
                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-28 18:22 +0100
                                      Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 22:55 +0000
                                      Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 15:00 -0800
                                        Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-29 12:09 -0500
                                        Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-29 19:33 +0100
                                          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-29 12:48 -0800
                                          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-29 23:51 +0000
                                        Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-29 12:10 -0500
                                          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-29 12:53 -0800
                                Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-27 21:06 +0000
                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 00:35 +0000
                                    Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-28 01:22 +0000
                                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 17:26 -0800
                                      Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 01:59 +0000
                                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-28 13:00 +0100
                                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 16:09 +0000
                                            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-28 18:06 +0100
                                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-28 19:24 +0100
                                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 19:49 +0000
                                                Re: Binary Pipelines (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-28 20:48 +0000
                                                Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-28 14:54 -0800
                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 17:18 +0100
                                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-29 18:47 +0000
                                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 21:06 +0100
                                                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-29 13:00 -0800
                                                      Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 18:29 +0000
                                                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-30 20:23 +0100
                                                        Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 12:06 -0800
                                                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 21:04 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-31 06:04 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 08:59 +0100
                                                                Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 12:53 +0200
                                                                  Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 14:21 +0100
                                                            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 14:02 +0100
                                                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 14:05 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 14:35 +0100
                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 11:30 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 18:35 +0100
                                                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 22:41 +0100
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 01:59 +0100
                                                    Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-29 23:55 +0000
                                                Re: iso646.h Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-01-29 12:10 -0800
                                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-29 22:14 +0000
                                                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-29 22:24 +0000
                                                    Re: iso646.h Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-01-29 23:27 -0800
                                                      Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 09:13 +0000
                                                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-30 14:03 +0100
                                                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 15:49 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-30 16:06 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-01-30 16:12 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 16:33 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-30 16:54 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-01-30 19:39 +0000
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-31 06:12 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-31 01:39 -0500
                                                                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:20 +0000
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 14:47 +0100
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-01-31 19:43 +0000
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 12:14 -0800
                                                                        Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-31 20:25 +0000
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 13:26 -0800
                                                                            Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-01 01:23 +0000
                                                                              Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 01:34 +0000
                                                                                Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-01 16:28 +0000
                                                                        Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 23:25 +0000
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 15:34 -0800
                                                                            Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 01:58 +0000
                                                                              Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 18:27 -0800
                                                                              Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 14:52 +0000
                                                                                Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 16:01 +0000
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-02 01:13 +0000
                                                                            Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-02 02:15 +0000
                                                                              Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-02 05:08 +0000
                                                                                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-02 15:28 +0000
                                                                            Re: iso646.h Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-02-02 16:50 +0000
                                                                        Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-02-01 00:52 -0500
                                                                      Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-02-01 00:45 -0500
                                                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-30 17:25 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-30 16:55 +0000
                                                                Creation era of stdin, stdout, stderr (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-30 19:06 +0100
                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-30 20:29 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-30 20:24 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 12:55 -0800
                                                                  Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-30 21:42 +0000
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-31 06:10 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h dave_thompson_2@comcast.net - 2024-02-26 04:20 -0500
                                                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 17:34 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-30 18:43 +0000
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-30 20:54 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-31 06:07 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 14:45 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:20 +0000
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 08:38 -0800
                                                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 19:05 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-02 00:08 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 02:10 +0100
                                                                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-02 02:12 +0000
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 03:42 +0100
                                                                        Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-02 03:47 +0000
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 20:02 -0800
                                                              Re: iso646.h dave_thompson_2@comcast.net - 2024-02-26 04:18 -0500
                                                        Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-30 15:00 +0000
                                                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 15:21 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-30 15:53 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-31 06:03 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 15:28 +0200
                                                          Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-30 15:30 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-30 15:54 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-30 16:10 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-30 17:49 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-01-30 18:22 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-30 18:44 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-30 20:46 +0100
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 12:22 +0100
                                                                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 14:58 +0100
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 15:39 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 18:39 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-01-30 19:45 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 11:59 -0800
                                                                  Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-30 16:16 -0500
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 12:35 +0100
                                                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 15:09 +0100
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 15:46 +0100
                                                                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 19:11 +0100
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 10:35 -0800
                                                                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 11:34 +0100
                                                                              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 17:24 +0100
                                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 22:46 +0100
                                                                      Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:29 +0000
                                                                        Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 08:41 -0800
                                                                          Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 17:06 +0000
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-31 06:00 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:15 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-30 11:50 -0800
                                                                Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-31 06:02 +0000
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 12:43 +0100
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 13:58 +0200
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 13:35 +0100
                                                                        Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 15:10 +0200
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 18:19 +0100
                                                                            Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 19:53 +0200
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-01 23:49 +0000
                                                                        Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:17 +0000
                                                                        Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-31 11:20 -0500
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 18:06 +0100
                                                                            Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-01 23:52 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 08:30 -0800
                                                                  Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:16 +0000
                                                        Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-31 06:06 +0000
                                                        Re: iso646.h Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-01-30 23:18 -0800
                                                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 08:36 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 15:21 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:22 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 19:15 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 16:25 +0100
                                                                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:58 +0000
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 17:17 +0100
                                                                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 17:05 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 18:26 +0200
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 18:27 +0200
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 19:01 +0100
                                                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 19:24 +0100
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 02:18 +0100
                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-31 19:20 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 02:48 +0100
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-02 07:16 +0000
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 13:17 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 16:04 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 08:33 -0800
                                                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 23:48 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 16:49 -0800
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 01:10 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 17:36 -0800
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 02:23 +0000
                                                                        Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 18:30 -0800
                                                                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 00:49 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-01 05:24 -0800
                                                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 15:07 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 12:18 -0800
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 23:57 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 13:34 +0100
                                                                Re: iso646.h Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-03 11:27 -0800
                                                          Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 12:43 +0200
                                                            Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 12:15 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 13:49 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 17:03 +0200
                                                                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:49 +0000
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 18:04 +0200
                                                                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 16:54 +0000
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 09:16 -0800
                                                                        Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 17:21 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-31 15:53 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 17:29 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 19:36 +0200
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 19:47 +0100
                                                            Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:25 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 16:33 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 17:42 +0200
                                                                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 15:58 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 17:05 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 18:18 +0200
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 17:47 +0100
                                                                      Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 17:20 +0000
                                                                        [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 20:11 +0100
                                                                          Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 19:28 +0000
                                                                            Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 13:12 +0100
                                                                              Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-01 12:50 +0000
                                                                                Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-02 04:57 +0000
                                                                                  Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-02 07:18 +0000
                                                                                    Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-03 01:44 +0000
                                                                                  Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-02 09:34 +0100
                                                                                  Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-02 10:57 +0000
                                                                                    Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-03 01:43 +0000
                                                                                      Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 12:47 -0800
                                                                                        Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-04 22:36 +0000
                                                                                          Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-04 15:26 -0800
                                                                                            Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-05 01:49 +0000
                                                                                              Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-04 18:08 -0800
                                                                              Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 15:04 +0000
                                                                                Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 16:16 +0100
                                                                          Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-01-31 20:16 +0000
                                                                            Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 22:22 +0200
                                                                              Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-31 20:50 +0000
                                                                                Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-01-31 23:00 +0200
                                                                                  Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-01-31 21:20 +0000
                                                                                    Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 13:27 +0100
                                                                            Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 13:16 +0100
                                                                              Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-02-01 13:21 +0000
                                                                          Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 11:45 +0100
                                                                            Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 13:03 +0100
                                                                            Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-02 04:58 +0000
                                                                          Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-01 05:22 -0800
                                                                            [meta] Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 15:38 +0100
                                                                            Re: [OT] Unix shells and POSIX shell (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-02 05:00 +0000
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-31 19:22 +0100
                                                            Re: iso646.h Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-02-01 05:17 -0800
                                                            Re: Alternative Shells (was Re: iso646.h) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-02 05:04 +0000
                                                        Re: iso646.h Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-01-31 23:36 +0000
                                                          Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-01 00:21 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 00:47 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-01 01:29 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 14:42 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 15:50 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-01 17:06 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 23:02 +0100
                                                                      Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-01 22:56 +0000
                                                                        Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 03:13 +0100
                                                                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-02 09:44 +0100
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-02-02 01:08 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 15:35 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-01 15:32 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 12:23 -0800
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 03:26 +0100
                                                            Re: iso646.h Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-02 23:41 +0000
                                                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 01:53 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 14:45 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 14:57 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 16:47 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 16:22 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 15:55 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 15:41 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 17:15 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 19:36 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-01 19:50 +0000
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-02-01 20:03 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 23:06 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 22:38 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-02 09:51 +0100
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-02 13:28 +0000
                                                                        Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-02 15:47 +0100
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-02 15:38 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-02 23:38 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-02-02 23:59 +0000
                                                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 05:24 +0000
                                                            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 14:02 +0100
                                                              Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 13:26 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-01 16:07 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 15:50 +0000
                                                                    Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 16:30 +0000
                                                                      Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-01 18:03 +0000
                                                                        Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 12:09 -0800
                                                                          Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 20:59 +0000
                                                                          Re: iso646.h bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-02-01 21:25 +0000
                                                                            Re: iso646.h "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 13:34 -0800
                                                                              Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 22:25 +0000
                                                                                Re: iso646.h "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 14:40 -0800
                                                                                Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 15:31 -0800
                                                                            Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 22:24 +0000
                                                                          Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 12:41 +0100
                                                                            Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-02-02 08:39 -0800
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-02-02 12:33 +0100
                                                                    Re: iso646.h Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-02-02 21:40 +0000
                                                                      Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 05:14 +0000
                                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-02-01 16:48 +0100
                                                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-02-01 16:19 +0000
                                                              Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-02-01 14:53 +0000
                                          Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-28 18:02 +0100
                Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 19:33 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-24 19:45 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-24 19:48 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 00:30 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-25 03:56 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 05:25 +0000
                        Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-25 07:02 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 14:46 +0100
                  Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 14:29 +0100
                    Re: iso646.h kalevi@kolttonen.fi (Kalevi Kolttonen) - 2024-01-25 15:08 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-25 16:18 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-25 11:20 -0800
                        Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-26 12:17 +0000
                          Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-26 07:56 -0800
                            Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-26 23:03 +0000
                          Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-26 17:06 +0100
                            Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-26 18:59 +0100
                              Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-26 20:18 +0100
                                Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-26 23:15 +0000
                                  Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-26 15:55 -0800
                                  Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-27 17:07 +0100
                                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 17:34 -0800
                                      Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-28 13:02 +0100
                                Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-27 01:12 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-01-26 20:43 -0500
                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-27 11:21 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 03:05 +0000
                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-27 11:34 +0100
                                      Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-27 11:02 +0000
                                        Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-27 12:36 +0100
                                          Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-29 18:32 +0000
                                            Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 19:48 +0100
                                              Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-29 19:35 +0000
                                                Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 21:10 +0100
                                                  Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-29 22:27 +0000
                                                    Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-30 10:05 +0100
                                  Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-27 17:46 +0100
                                    Re: iso646.h Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-01-28 20:16 +0100
                                      Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-29 17:20 +0100
                    Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-25 10:48 -0800
          Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-23 21:51 +0000
            Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 19:48 +0000
              Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-24 19:52 +0000
                Re: iso646.h "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 13:00 -0800
                Re: iso646.h Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-01-25 00:26 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-25 01:25 +0000
              Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 12:09 -0800
                Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-25 03:46 +0000
                  Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-24 19:59 -0800
                    Re: iso646.h Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-01-25 05:39 +0000
                    Re: iso646.h Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-01-25 09:55 +0000
                      Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 15:19 +0100
                        Re: iso646.h Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-01-25 07:26 -0800
                          Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-26 17:12 +0100
                      Re: iso646.h scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-01-25 16:22 +0000
              Re: iso646.h David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-01-25 15:02 +0100

Page 29 of 33 — ← Prev page 1 … 27 28 [29] 30 31 … 33  Next page →


#381507

FromRichard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid>
Date2024-02-01 20:03 +0000
Message-ID<upgtff$2764a$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381505
On 01/02/2024 19:50, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2024-02-01, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>>> On 01.02.2024 16:41, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So could you list one or two reasons why you might prefer a program with
>>>> five subroutines, and one or two reasons why you might prefer to write
>>>> five programs which communicate via piped data?
>>>
>>> A quite appealing and naturally appearing task (from the past) to use
>>> pipes was to model communication cascades. Something like (off the top
>>> of my head)...
>>>
>>>   data-source | sign | compress | crc | encrypt | channel-enc |
>>>     interleaver | channel-simulator | deinterleaver | channel-dec |
>>>       decrypt | crc-check | uncompress | check-sign | data-sink
>>>
>>> Component-pairs can be omitted, say you may leave out the un-/compress
>>> function. And every component may be either special purpose or general.
>>> A special purpose entity could be BCH-enc and RCPC-enc, or it can also
>>> be (if better suited) a combined module, say 'crc -16' vs. 'crc -32'
>>> with the function realized as option argument.
>>
>> There was also the widely used netpbm package for translating
>> between different image formats.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netpbm
>>
>> $ giftopnm somepic.gif | ppmtobmp > somepic.bmp
>> $ for i in *.png; do pngtopam $i | ppmtojpeg >`basename $i .png`.jpg; done
> 
> Also, in regard to some silly objections upthread about the danger of
> binary data on standard ouptut, programs in Unix can easily do the
> Following (and arguably should):
> 
>    if (isatty(STDOUT_FILENO)) {
>      fprintf(stderr, "Cowardly refusing to dump binary data to a terminal.\n");
>      exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
>    }
> 

Yes, so common that the shell has test -t

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#381527

FromDavid Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Date2024-02-01 23:06 +0100
Message-ID<uph4kp$28ebd$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381482
On 01/02/2024 16:41, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On 01/02/2024 14:55, David Brown wrote:
>> On 01/02/2024 02:53, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On 31/01/2024 23:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>
>>>> An example where it's really useful not to care: I have a suite of 
>>>> tools
>>>> for doing toy cryptanalysis.  Some apply various transformations and/or
>>>> filters to byte streams and others collect and output (on stderr)
>>>> various statistics.  Plugging them together in various pipelines is 
>>>> very
>>>> handy when investigating an encrypted text.  The output is almost 
>>>> always
>>>> "binary" in the sense that there would be not point in looking at on a
>>>> terminal.
>>>>
>>>> According to you, these tools are poorly designed.  I don't think so.
>>>> How would you design them?  Endless input and output file names to be
>>>> juggled and tidied up afterwards?
>>>>
>>> I'd write a monolithic program.
>>
>> It's very strange to me to see people that consider themselves 
>> programmers talk about having multiple small functions to do specific 
>> tasks and combining them into bigger functions to solve bigger 
>> problems, yet are reduced to quivering jellies at the thought of 
>> multiple small programs to do specific tasks that can be combined to 
>> solve bigger tasks.
>>
>> Do you think the C standard library would be improved by a single 
>> function "flubadub" that takes 20 parameters and can calculate 
>> logarithms, print formatted text, allocate memory and write it all to 
>> a file?
>>
> By breaking down the problem into several parts e.g. "collect 
> statistical data, analyse statistics, form hypothesis, attempt 
> decryption, check decrypt for plausible plaintext" we can usually attack 
> it better. And you're right, there's not a fundamental difference 
> between writing one program with five subroutines, or five programs 
> which pass data to each other via pipelines.

That's not what I said.  Try re-reading.  I can't be bothered arguing 
against yet another straw man.

> But that doesn't mean that decision must not be made, or that you can't 
> give reasons for and against each option.
> 
> So could you list one or two reasons why you might prefer a program with 
> five subroutines, and one or two reasons why you might prefer to write 
> five programs which communicate via piped data?

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#381533

FromMalcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com>
Date2024-02-01 22:38 +0000
Message-ID<uph6hf$28p5f$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381527
On 01/02/2024 22:06, David Brown wrote:
> On 01/02/2024 16:41, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On 01/02/2024 14:55, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 01/02/2024 02:53, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On 31/01/2024 23:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> An example where it's really useful not to care: I have a suite of 
>>>>> tools
>>>>> for doing toy cryptanalysis.  Some apply various transformations 
>>>>> and/or
>>>>> filters to byte streams and others collect and output (on stderr)
>>>>> various statistics.  Plugging them together in various pipelines is 
>>>>> very
>>>>> handy when investigating an encrypted text.  The output is almost 
>>>>> always
>>>>> "binary" in the sense that there would be not point in looking at on a
>>>>> terminal.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to you, these tools are poorly designed.  I don't think so.
>>>>> How would you design them?  Endless input and output file names to be
>>>>> juggled and tidied up afterwards?
>>>>>
>>>> I'd write a monolithic program.
>>>
>>> It's very strange to me to see people that consider themselves 
>>> programmers talk about having multiple small functions to do specific 
>>> tasks and combining them into bigger functions to solve bigger 
>>> problems, yet are reduced to quivering jellies at the thought of 
>>> multiple small programs to do specific tasks that can be combined to 
>>> solve bigger tasks.
>>>
>>> Do you think the C standard library would be improved by a single 
>>> function "flubadub" that takes 20 parameters and can calculate 
>>> logarithms, print formatted text, allocate memory and write it all to 
>>> a file?
>>>
>> By breaking down the problem into several parts e.g. "collect 
>> statistical data, analyse statistics, form hypothesis, attempt 
>> decryption, check decrypt for plausible plaintext" we can usually 
>> attack it better. And you're right, there's not a fundamental 
>> difference between writing one program with five subroutines, or five 
>> programs which pass data to each other via pipelines.
> 
> That's not what I said.  Try re-reading.  I can't be bothered arguing 
> against yet another straw man.
> 
>> But that doesn't mean that decision must not be made, or that you 
>> can't give reasons for and against each option.
>>
>> So could you list one or two reasons why you might prefer a program 
>> with five subroutines, and one or two reasons why you might prefer to 
>> write five programs which communicate via piped data?
> 
I'm sure you're capable of going through the exercise and then you might 
gain a bit of insight on how to design such software systems. And, no, 
arguing that you'd go for a monolithic program doesn't necessarily mean 
that you are a "quivering jelly" at the thought of writing several 
simpler ones. And in fact to start you off I actually mentioned a few 
advantages of the pipeline approach.

There are advantages and drawbacks to both. But I can't force you to 
think about what those might be if you won't, and from experience just 
telling you provokes your natural contentiousness and isn't very 
effective.

It's reasonable to write a function flubadub which woirks as you say. 
It's not going to be a good candidate for the standard library as it 
would be too specific to a particular task. Unless it has several modes, 
making it effectively several functions with a common call address. 
That's not really similar to a monolithic program, even if it does have 
several "modes", because the modes would be related. You might have one 
mode for attempting decryption and another mode for achiving intercepts, 
and because they operate on the same archive, keeping the source in the 
same physical program prevents the archiver and the archive reader 
getting into incompatible versions. (There's an advantage of monolithic 
programs for the list). However you wouldn't write a monolithic program 
to decryot and to play space invaders. At least not normally.
-- 
Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

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#381584

FromDavid Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Date2024-02-02 09:51 +0100
Message-ID<upiado$2h7rf$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381533
On 01/02/2024 23:38, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> I'm sure you're capable of going through the exercise and then you might 
> gain a bit of insight on how to design such software systems. And, no, 
> arguing that you'd go for a monolithic program doesn't necessarily mean 
> that you are a "quivering jelly" at the thought of writing several 
> simpler ones. And in fact to start you off I actually mentioned a few 
> advantages of the pipeline approach.

I am perfectly aware of the advantages and disadvantages of monolithic 
approaches.

I am also perfectly aware that you won't read that previous sentence, 
understand it, or consider it before making up your next pointless straw 
man or making up another lecture on something you know nothing about 
while the rest of us do.

> 
> There are advantages and drawbacks to both. But I can't force you to 
> think about what those might be if you won't, and from experience just 
> telling you provokes your natural contentiousness and isn't very effective.
> 

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#381596

FromMalcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com>
Date2024-02-02 13:28 +0000
Message-ID<upiql7$2k41a$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381584
On 02/02/2024 08:51, David Brown wrote:
> On 01/02/2024 23:38, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> I'm sure you're capable of going through the exercise and then you 
>> might gain a bit of insight on how to design such software systems. 
>> And, no, arguing that you'd go for a monolithic program doesn't 
>> necessarily mean that you are a "quivering jelly" at the thought of 
>> writing several simpler ones. And in fact to start you off I actually 
>> mentioned a few advantages of the pipeline approach.
> 
> I am perfectly aware of the advantages and disadvantages of monolithic 
> approaches.
> 
Well it's kind of poroof of the pudding. Ben has several programs 
connected by piplines and asked me what I thought of the design. I said 
I'd go for a monolithinc approach. You criticised mem giving no reason 
ither than that my oreferred approach was  monolithic. So any reasonable 
erson would assume that you think that a monolithic approach is in and 
of itself bad.

When invited to list the advantages and disadvantages if either, you 
refused to do so. I am sure that you are capable of doing this, and you 
are basically right. But you haven't actually done so. And it's proof of 
the pudding.

Thne fact is there is case for `Ben's approach, there's a case for my 
approach, and maybe Ben's case is better. I've no objection to anyone 
weighing in on that. But fundamentally you do not understand what it 
means to offer an argument or how to make a case.

-- 
Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

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#381605

FromDavid Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Date2024-02-02 15:47 +0100
Message-ID<upiv9p$2ku97$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381596
On 02/02/2024 14:28, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On 02/02/2024 08:51, David Brown wrote:
>> On 01/02/2024 23:38, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> I'm sure you're capable of going through the exercise and then you 
>>> might gain a bit of insight on how to design such software systems. 
>>> And, no, arguing that you'd go for a monolithic program doesn't 
>>> necessarily mean that you are a "quivering jelly" at the thought of 
>>> writing several simpler ones. And in fact to start you off I actually 
>>> mentioned a few advantages of the pipeline approach.
>>
>> I am perfectly aware of the advantages and disadvantages of monolithic 
>> approaches.
>>
> Well it's kind of poroof of the pudding. Ben has several programs 
> connected by piplines and asked me what I thought of the design. I said 
> I'd go for a monolithinc approach. You criticised mem giving no reason 
> ither than that my oreferred approach was  monolithic. So any reasonable 
> erson would assume that you think that a monolithic approach is in and 
> of itself bad.

No, they would not.

But I don't think, based on your postings, you count as a "reasonable 
person".

> 
> When invited to list the advantages and disadvantages if either, you 
> refused to do so. I am sure that you are capable of doing this, and you 
> are basically right. But you haven't actually done so. And it's proof of 
> the pudding.
> 
> Thne fact is there is case for `Ben's approach, there's a case for my 
> approach, and maybe Ben's case is better. I've no objection to anyone 
> weighing in on that. But fundamentally you do not understand what it 
> means to offer an argument or how to make a case.
> 

I know exactly what it means.  But I know when it is pointless, when the 
person on the other side pays not the slightest attention to what is 
being said and instead wanders off in their own little world with their 
own little ideas and their own independent terminology.

What would be the point in giving reasons for anything, when you won't 
read them?  Why should I give arguments, when you will "counter" them by 
telling us that grass is blue, using your own definition for "blue"? 
I've put a lot of effort into trying to explain things to you - enough 
is enough.  I get more intelligent responses talking to my cat.

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#381614

FromMalcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com>
Date2024-02-02 15:38 +0000
Message-ID<upj2a2$2lhgs$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381605
On 02/02/2024 14:47, David Brown wrote:
> On 02/02/2024 14:28, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On 02/02/2024 08:51, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 01/02/2024 23:38, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> I'm sure you're capable of going through the exercise and then you 
>>>> might gain a bit of insight on how to design such software systems. 
>>>> And, no, arguing that you'd go for a monolithic program doesn't 
>>>> necessarily mean that you are a "quivering jelly" at the thought of 
>>>> writing several simpler ones. And in fact to start you off I 
>>>> actually mentioned a few advantages of the pipeline approach.
>>>
>>> I am perfectly aware of the advantages and disadvantages of 
>>> monolithic approaches.
>>>
>> Well it's kind of poroof of the pudding. Ben has several programs 
>> connected by piplines and asked me what I thought of the design. I 
>> said I'd go for a monolithinc approach. You criticised mem giving no 
>> reason ither than that my oreferred approach was  monolithic. So any 
>> reasonable erson would assume that you think that a monolithic 
>> approach is in and of itself bad.
> 
> No, they would not.
> 
> But I don't think, based on your postings, you count as a "reasonable 
> person".
> 
>>
>> When invited to list the advantages and disadvantages if either, you 
>> refused to do so. I am sure that you are capable of doing this, and 
>> you are basically right. But you haven't actually done so. And it's 
>> proof of the pudding.
>>
>> Thne fact is there is case for `Ben's approach, there's a case for my 
>> approach, and maybe Ben's case is better. I've no objection to anyone 
>> weighing in on that. But fundamentally you do not understand what it 
>> means to offer an argument or how to make a case.
>>
> 
> I know exactly what it means.  But I know when it is pointless, when the 
> person on the other side pays not the slightest attention to what is 
> being said and instead wanders off in their own little world with their 
> own little ideas and their own independent terminology.
> 
> What would be the point in giving reasons for anything, when you won't 
> read them?  Why should I give arguments, when you will "counter" them by 
> telling us that grass is blue, using your own definition for "blue"? 
> I've put a lot of effort into trying to explain things to you - enough 
> is enough.  I get more intelligent responses talking to my cat.
> 
> 
OK so here's how it went.

 >> On 31/01/2024 23:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 >>>
 >> An example where it's really useful not to care: I have a suite of 
tools
 >>> for doing toy cryptanalysis.  Some apply various transformations and/or
 >>> filters to byte streams and others collect and output (on stderr)
 >>> various statistics.  Plugging them together in various pipelines is 
very
 >>> handy when investigating an encrypted text.  The output is almost 
always
 >>> "binary" in the sense that there would be not point in looking at on a
 >> terminal.
 >>
 >> According to you, these tools are poorly designed.  I don't think so.
 >> How would you design them?  Endless input and output file names to be
 >> juggled and tidied up afterwards?
 >>
 > I'd write a monolithic program.

[David Brown]
It's very strange to me to see people that consider themselves 
programmers talk about having multiple small functions to do specific 
tasks and combining them into bigger functions to solve bigger problems, 
yet are reduced to quivering jellies at the thought of multiple small 
programs to do specific tasks that can be combined to solve bigger tasks.

Do you think the C standard library would be improved by a single 
function "flubadub" that takes 20 parameters and can calculate 
logarithms, print formatted text, allocate memory and write it all to a 
file?

So Ben describes his system, then asks how I woud design to to remove 
the pipelines (they don't actually seem to be binary pipelines, which is 
what I was objecting to, but Ben says that because of the type of data 
they pass they are as good as. Let that pass.) Would I create a lot of 
temporary intermediate files? That would be one approach. But my answer 
is no I wouldn't, I'd merge the programs into one monolithic program. 
Then you wouldn't need either intermediate files or pipelines.

Now that shoukd be regarded as an entirely reasonable, unexceptional 
answer to the question. Of course you can say "actually you are only 
pretending to be reasonable. You're concocting a post hoc justification 
for not having pipelines. You wouldn't really do that." And maybe 
there's something in that. I represent and stand for hope, charity, and 
reason, and always try to express these values. But I'm not pure reason. 
I do have my human failings. However bascially it's an answer. And I go 
on to discuss the pros and cons.

Now lets look at your contribution. It's unnecessarily contentious. It's 
insulting. And whilst it does make a point, it's a rather silly one and 
not really addressing the issue, which is about communications. And it 
does seem that you think "distributed good, monolithic bad". You might 
not exacty say it in as many words. But it's hard to see how someone 
wouldn't gain that impression.

But of course you do have a reasonable degree of intelligence, and you 
can easily be brought to see that monolithic systems have their 
advantages as well as their disadvantages. You know that really already. 
You've just blinded yourself to it through pure contentiousness.

Try to see these things.
-- 
Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

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#381641

FromBen Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Date2024-02-02 23:38 +0000
Message-ID<87v876phch.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
In reply to#381430
Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:

> On 31/01/2024 23:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 30/01/2024 07:27, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 29/01/2024 20:10, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've never used standard output for binary data.
>>>>>>> [...] it strikes me as a poor design decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How so?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because the output can't be inspected by humans, and because it might
>>>>> have unusual effects if passed though systems designed to handle
>>>>> human-readable text.
>> Maybe you are not used to a system where it's trivial to inspect such
>> data.  When "some_prog" produces data that are not compatible with the
>> current terminal settings, "some_prog | hd" shows a hex dump instead.
>> The need to do this does not make "some_prog" poorly designed.  It may
>> simply mean that the output is /intended/ for further processing.
>> 
>>> For instance in some systems designed to receive
>>>>> ASCII text, there is no distinction between the nul byte and "waiting
>>>>> for next data byte".  Obviously this will cause difficuties if the data
>>>>> is binary.
>>>>> Also many binary formats can't easily be extended, so you can pass one
>>>>> image and that's all.  While it is possible to devise a text format
>>>>> which is similar, in practice text formats usually have enough
>>>>> redundancy to be easily extended.
>>>>>
>>>>> So it's harder to correct errors, more prone to errors, and harder to
>>>>> extend.
>>>> Your reasoning is all gobbledygook.  Your comments reflect only
>>>> limitations in your thinking, not any essential truth about using
>>>> standard out for binary data.
>>>>
>>> I must admit that it's nothing I have ever done or considered doing.
>>>
>>> However standard output is designed for text and not binary ouput.
>> What is your evidence?  stdout was just designed for output (as far as I
>> can tell) and, anyway, what is the distinction you are making between
>> binary and text?  iconv --from ACSII --to EBCDIC-UK will produce
>> something that is "logically" text on stdout, but it might look like
>> binary to you.
>> An example where it's really useful not to care: I have a suite of tools
>> for doing toy cryptanalysis.  Some apply various transformations and/or
>> filters to byte streams and others collect and output (on stderr)
>> various statistics.  Plugging them together in various pipelines is very
>> handy when investigating an encrypted text.  The output is almost always
>> "binary" in the sense that there would be not point in looking at on a
>> terminal.
>> According to you, these tools are poorly designed.  I don't think so.
>> How would you design them?  Endless input and output file names to be
>> juggled and tidied up afterwards?
>> 
> I'd write a monolithic program.
> Load the encryoted text into memory, and then pass it to subroutines to do
> the various analyses.
> You can of course process it, and then pass the processed output to other
> programs. And that does have a point if the program which is acceoting the
> processed outout is doing something which has no necessary connection to
> cryptanalysis. So for example a program to produce a pie chart from a list
> of letter frequencies. But if it's transforming the encrypted text in
> intricate and specialised ways, then analysing the transformed text in
> other specialised and intricate ways, then firstly you've probably
> introduced coupling and dependency between the two programs, and secondly
> you're probably at some point going to want to modify the second program in
> the pipeline to look at the raw data.

I don't think you understand the design at all.  What coupling?  And why
would I modify the program to inspect the data when there are several
inspection program that can be inserted before or after to do just that?

I've commented elsewhere on why I think a monolithic program is not a
good design, so I won't repeat that here.  I just don't understand any
of your objections to my design.  Specifically, you don't address the
fact that you claim it's wrong simply because the data going to stdout
are binary.  Have you abandoned that generic criticism?  Is there why
you split the thread with two replies?

-- 
Ben.

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#381643

FromKaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com>
Date2024-02-02 23:59 +0000
Message-ID<20240202155824.923@kylheku.com>
In reply to#381641
On 2024-02-02, Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> I've commented elsewhere on why I think a monolithic program is not a
> good design, so I won't repeat that here.

All the programs I use are some kind of "lithic"; not so much mono-
as neo-.

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

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#381438

FromMalcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com>
Date2024-02-01 05:24 +0000
Message-ID<upf9ug$1uf0j$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381417
On 31/01/2024 23:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On 30/01/2024 07:27, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 29/01/2024 20:10, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've never used standard output for binary data.
>>>>>> [...] it strikes me as a poor design decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> How so?
>>>>
>>>> Because the output can't be inspected by humans, and because it might
>>>> have unusual effects if passed though systems designed to handle
>>>> human-readable text.
> 
> Maybe you are not used to a system where it's trivial to inspect such
> data.  When "some_prog" produces data that are not compatible with the
> current terminal settings, "some_prog | hd" shows a hex dump instead.
> The need to do this does not make "some_prog" poorly designed.  It may
> simply mean that the output is /intended/ for further processing.
> 
Well almost by definition binary output is intended for further 
processing. Binary audio files must ultimately be converted to analogue 
if anyone is to listen to them, for example.
I had to check how to do a hex dump on the system I'm typing this on. 
The name of the hex dumper is xxd instead of hd, but otherwise it works 
the same way and will accept piped data. But the fact I had to look it 
up tells you that I've never actually used it. The two problems with hex 
dumps are that you've got to do mental arithmetic to convert 8 bit hex 
values into 16 or 32 bit fields, and that once you get a variable length 
field, it's virtually impossible to keep track of and match up the 
following fields. So in reality what I do when troubleshooting binary 
data is to write a scratch program, or, more often because the trouble 
is in the existing parser, put diagnosics in an existing parser to print 
out a few fields and inspect them that way. Of course to check that 
audio or image data is right you have to listen to it or view it - you 
can't tell from looking at the individual samples.

-- 
Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

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#381454

FromJanis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com>
Date2024-02-01 14:02 +0100
Message-ID<upg4ol$22tss$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381438
On 01.02.2024 06:24, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On 31/01/2024 23:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you are not used to a system where it's trivial to inspect such
>> data.  When "some_prog" produces data that are not compatible with the
>> current terminal settings, "some_prog | hd" shows a hex dump instead.
>> The need to do this does not make "some_prog" poorly designed.  It may
>> simply mean that the output is /intended/ for further processing.
>>
> Well almost by definition binary output is intended for further
> processing. Binary audio files must ultimately be converted to analogue
> if anyone is to listen to them, for example.

Well, not necessarily. Let's leave the typical use case for a moment...

It might also be analyzed and converted to a digitally represented
formula, say some TeX code, or e.g. like the formal syntax that the
lilypond program uses.

> I had to check how to do a hex dump on the system I'm typing this on.
> The name of the hex dumper is xxd instead of hd, but otherwise it works
> the same way and will accept piped data. But the fact I had to look it
> up tells you that I've never actually used it.

Well, there's always the old Unix standard tool, 'od'.

I use that without thinking or looking it up, since it was ever there,
despite I only rarely use it.

And you observed correctly that nowadays there's typically even more
than one tool available. (And Bart will probably write his own tool. :-)

> The two problems with hex
> dumps are that you've got to do mental arithmetic to convert 8 bit hex
> values into 16 or 32 bit fields,

Hmm.. - have you inspected the man pages of the tools?

At least for 'od' I know it's easy per option...
  od -c file          # characters (or escapes and octals)
  od -t x1 file       # hex octets
  od -t x2 file       # words (two octets)
  od -c -t x1 file    # characters and octets

> and that once you get a variable length
> field, it's virtually impossible to keep track of and match up the
> following fields.

An inherent property of a binary. In that case you need data specific
applications.

> So in reality what I do when troubleshooting binary
> data is to write a scratch program, or, more often because the trouble
> is in the existing parser, put diagnosics in an existing parser to print
> out a few fields and inspect them that way.

That's fine.

> Of course to check that
> audio or image data is right you have to listen to it or view it - you
> can't tell from looking at the individual samples.

Depends on the sort of check, and the solution approach. (See my
lilypond example.)

Janis

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#381459

FromMalcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com>
Date2024-02-01 13:26 +0000
Message-ID<upg65m$235lp$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381454
On 01/02/2024 13:02, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 01.02.2024 06:24, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On 31/01/2024 23:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe you are not used to a system where it's trivial to inspect such
>>> data.  When "some_prog" produces data that are not compatible with the
>>> current terminal settings, "some_prog | hd" shows a hex dump instead.
>>> The need to do this does not make "some_prog" poorly designed.  It may
>>> simply mean that the output is /intended/ for further processing.
>>>
>> Well almost by definition binary output is intended for further
>> processing. Binary audio files must ultimately be converted to analogue
>> if anyone is to listen to them, for example.
> 
> Well, not necessarily. Let's leave the typical use case for a moment...
> 
> It might also be analyzed and converted to a digitally represented
> formula, say some TeX code, or e.g. like the formal syntax that the
> lilypond program uses.
> 
And ultimately converted to a non binary form. A list of 1s and 0s is 
seldom any use to the final consumer of the data.
 >

>> The two problems with hex
>> dumps are that you've got to do mental arithmetic to convert 8 bit hex
>> values into 16 or 32 bit fields,
> 
> Hmm.. - have you inspected the man pages of the tools?
> 
I just ran "man xxd". The man page contains this statement.

The tool's weirdness matches its creator's brain.  Use entirely at your
        own risk. Copy files. Trace it. Become a wizard.
> At least for 'od' I know it's easy per option...
>    od -c file          # characters (or escapes and octals)
>    od -t x1 file       # hex octets
>    od -t x2 file       # words (two octets)
>    od -c -t x1 file    # characters and octets
> 
So a JPEG file starts with
FF D8
FF E0
hi lo (length of the FF E0 segment)

So we want the output

FF D8 FF E0 [1000] to check that the segment markers are correct and FF 
E0 segment is genuinely a thousand bytes (or whatever it is). This isn't 
easy to achieve with a hex dump utility.

-- 
Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

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#381478

FromJanis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com>
Date2024-02-01 16:07 +0100
Message-ID<upgc4f$2454d$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381459
On 01.02.2024 14:26, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On 01/02/2024 13:02, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> Well, not necessarily. Let's leave the typical use case for a moment...
>>
>> It might also be analyzed and converted to a digitally represented
>> formula, say some TeX code, or e.g. like the formal syntax that the
>> lilypond program uses.
>>
> And ultimately converted to a non binary form. A list of 1s and 0s is
> seldom any use to the final consumer of the data.

No, I was speaking about an application that creates lilypond _input_,
which is a formal language to write notes, e.g. for evaluation by the
lilypond software, but not excluding other usages.

> 
>>> The two problems with hex
>>> dumps are that you've got to do mental arithmetic to convert 8 bit hex
>>> values into 16 or 32 bit fields,
>>
>> Hmm.. - have you inspected the man pages of the tools?
>>
> I just ran "man xxd". The man page contains this statement.
> 
> The tool's weirdness matches its creator's brain.  Use entirely at your
>        own risk. Copy files. Trace it. Become a wizard.

This statement repelled you? (Can't help you here.)

>> At least for 'od' I know it's easy per option...
>>    od -c file          # characters (or escapes and octals)
>>    od -t x1 file       # hex octets
>>    od -t x2 file       # words (two octets)
>>    od -c -t x1 file    # characters and octets
>>
> So a JPEG file starts with
> FF D8
> FF E0
> hi lo (length of the FF E0 segment)
> 
> So we want the output
> 
> FF D8 FF E0 [1000] to check that the segment markers are correct and FF
> E0 segment is genuinely a thousand bytes (or whatever it is). This isn't
> easy to achieve with a hex dump utility.

I don't know binary format details about jpg, so I cannot help you here.

I was responding to your question where you wanted entities larger than
a single octet. I showed you some examples what I can do with 'od'.
(Just open it's man page to find all sorts of possible options and
option combinations.)

Yes, you can use entities of length four. Guess how? By 'od -t x4 file'
Or if you need decimal numbers use 'od -t d4 file' or 'od -t d2 file'.

And I already answered that for specific binary structures you'll need
something data specific. You can also generalize that to some degree...

For example I recently wrote a shell script that supports binary data
definitions in a very primitive declarative form; it's allowing me to
specify the field lengths, output type, and identification for readable
output. It allows hex, bin, dec, text, hex-seq, data to skip. Length of
fields many be constants, 0-terminated, or defined by another preceding
field. It also handles endianness.

You see even some primitive "generic" thing needs a couple features.

Janis

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#381486

FromMalcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com>
Date2024-02-01 15:50 +0000
Message-ID<upgekv$24gnk$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381478
On 01/02/2024 15:07, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 01.02.2024 14:26, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On 01/02/2024 13:02, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>> Well, not necessarily. Let's leave the typical use case for a moment...
>>>
>>> It might also be analyzed and converted to a digitally represented
>>> formula, say some TeX code, or e.g. like the formal syntax that the
>>> lilypond program uses.
>>>
>> And ultimately converted to a non binary form. A list of 1s and 0s is
>> seldom any use to the final consumer of the data.
> 
> No, I was speaking about an application that creates lilypond _input_,
> which is a formal language to write notes, e.g. for evaluation by the
> lilypond software, but not excluding other usages.
> 
>>
>>>> The two problems with hex
>>>> dumps are that you've got to do mental arithmetic to convert 8 bit hex
>>>> values into 16 or 32 bit fields,
>>>
>>> Hmm.. - have you inspected the man pages of the tools?
>>>
>> I just ran "man xxd". The man page contains this statement.
>>
>> The tool's weirdness matches its creator's brain.  Use entirely at your
>>         own risk. Copy files. Trace it. Become a wizard.
> 
> This statement repelled you? (Can't help you here.)
> 
>>> At least for 'od' I know it's easy per option...
>>>     od -c file          # characters (or escapes and octals)
>>>     od -t x1 file       # hex octets
>>>     od -t x2 file       # words (two octets)
>>>     od -c -t x1 file    # characters and octets
>>>
>> So a JPEG file starts with
>> FF D8
>> FF E0
>> hi lo (length of the FF E0 segment)
>>
>> So we want the output
>>
>> FF D8 FF E0 [1000] to check that the segment markers are correct and FF
>> E0 segment is genuinely a thousand bytes (or whatever it is). This isn't
>> easy to achieve with a hex dump utility.
> 
> I don't know binary format details about jpg, so I cannot help you here.
> 
JPEG is an extremely common binary file format and JPEG files will be 
found on most general purpose computers.
All you need to know for the purposes of the discussion is that the 
first four bytes are segment identifiers and must have the values I 
gave, whilst bytes five and six are a big endian 16 bit number that 
represents a segment length, and that potentially any of those values 
could be unexpected and you might want to inspect them.

So how would you achieve that in a convenient and non-error prone way?

-- 
Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

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#381495

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2024-02-01 16:30 +0000
Message-ID<JGPuN.297652$PuZ9.135961@fx11.iad>
In reply to#381486
Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>On 01/02/2024 15:07, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 01.02.2024 14:26, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On 01/02/2024 13:02, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>>> Well, not necessarily. Let's leave the typical use case for a moment...
>>>>
>>>> It might also be analyzed and converted to a digitally represented
>>>> formula, say some TeX code, or e.g. like the formal syntax that the
>>>> lilypond program uses.
>>>>
>>> And ultimately converted to a non binary form. A list of 1s and 0s is
>>> seldom any use to the final consumer of the data.
>> 
>> No, I was speaking about an application that creates lilypond _input_,
>> which is a formal language to write notes, e.g. for evaluation by the
>> lilypond software, but not excluding other usages.
>> 
>>>
>>>>> The two problems with hex
>>>>> dumps are that you've got to do mental arithmetic to convert 8 bit hex
>>>>> values into 16 or 32 bit fields,
>>>>
>>>> Hmm.. - have you inspected the man pages of the tools?
>>>>
>>> I just ran "man xxd". The man page contains this statement.
>>>
>>> The tool's weirdness matches its creator's brain.  Use entirely at your
>>>         own risk. Copy files. Trace it. Become a wizard.
>> 
>> This statement repelled you? (Can't help you here.)
>> 
>>>> At least for 'od' I know it's easy per option...
>>>>     od -c file          # characters (or escapes and octals)
>>>>     od -t x1 file       # hex octets
>>>>     od -t x2 file       # words (two octets)
>>>>     od -c -t x1 file    # characters and octets
>>>>
>>> So a JPEG file starts with
>>> FF D8
>>> FF E0
>>> hi lo (length of the FF E0 segment)
>>>
>>> So we want the output
>>>
>>> FF D8 FF E0 [1000] to check that the segment markers are correct and FF
>>> E0 segment is genuinely a thousand bytes (or whatever it is). This isn't
>>> easy to achieve with a hex dump utility.
>> 
>> I don't know binary format details about jpg, so I cannot help you here.
>> 
>JPEG is an extremely common binary file format and JPEG files will be 
>found on most general purpose computers.
>All you need to know for the purposes of the discussion is that the 
>first four bytes are segment identifiers and must have the values I 
>gave, whilst bytes five and six are a big endian 16 bit number that 
>represents a segment length, and that potentially any of those values 
>could be unexpected and you might want to inspect them.
>
>So how would you achieve that in a convenient and non-error prone way?

$ if file /tmp/garage.jpg | grep JPEG > /dev/null^Jthen^Jecho "it is a jpeg"^Jfi
it is a jpeg

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#381500

Frombart <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2024-02-01 18:03 +0000
Message-ID<upgmdd$2605r$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381495
On 01/02/2024 16:30, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 01/02/2024 15:07, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>> On 01.02.2024 14:26, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On 01/02/2024 13:02, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>>>> Well, not necessarily. Let's leave the typical use case for a moment...
>>>>>
>>>>> It might also be analyzed and converted to a digitally represented
>>>>> formula, say some TeX code, or e.g. like the formal syntax that the
>>>>> lilypond program uses.
>>>>>
>>>> And ultimately converted to a non binary form. A list of 1s and 0s is
>>>> seldom any use to the final consumer of the data.
>>>
>>> No, I was speaking about an application that creates lilypond _input_,
>>> which is a formal language to write notes, e.g. for evaluation by the
>>> lilypond software, but not excluding other usages.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The two problems with hex
>>>>>> dumps are that you've got to do mental arithmetic to convert 8 bit hex
>>>>>> values into 16 or 32 bit fields,
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm.. - have you inspected the man pages of the tools?
>>>>>
>>>> I just ran "man xxd". The man page contains this statement.
>>>>
>>>> The tool's weirdness matches its creator's brain.  Use entirely at your
>>>>          own risk. Copy files. Trace it. Become a wizard.
>>>
>>> This statement repelled you? (Can't help you here.)
>>>
>>>>> At least for 'od' I know it's easy per option...
>>>>>      od -c file          # characters (or escapes and octals)
>>>>>      od -t x1 file       # hex octets
>>>>>      od -t x2 file       # words (two octets)
>>>>>      od -c -t x1 file    # characters and octets
>>>>>
>>>> So a JPEG file starts with
>>>> FF D8
>>>> FF E0
>>>> hi lo (length of the FF E0 segment)
>>>>
>>>> So we want the output
>>>>
>>>> FF D8 FF E0 [1000] to check that the segment markers are correct and FF
>>>> E0 segment is genuinely a thousand bytes (or whatever it is). This isn't
>>>> easy to achieve with a hex dump utility.
>>>
>>> I don't know binary format details about jpg, so I cannot help you here.
>>>
>> JPEG is an extremely common binary file format and JPEG files will be
>> found on most general purpose computers.
>> All you need to know for the purposes of the discussion is that the
>> first four bytes are segment identifiers and must have the values I
>> gave, whilst bytes five and six are a big endian 16 bit number that
>> represents a segment length, and that potentially any of those values
>> could be unexpected and you might want to inspect them.
>>
>> So how would you achieve that in a convenient and non-error prone way?
> 
> $ if file /tmp/garage.jpg | grep JPEG > /dev/null^Jthen^Jecho "it is a jpeg"^Jfi
> it is a jpeg

That doesn't work for me:

     root@xxx:/mnt/c/mx# ls card2.jpg
     card2.jpg
     root@xxx:/mnt/c/mx#  if file card2.jpg | grep JPEG > 
/dev/null^Jthen^Jecho "it is a jpeg"^Jfi
     >
     >

I just get a lone ">". If press Enter, I get more. If I press Ctrl=D, it 
says:

     > -bash: syntax error: unexpected end of file
     logout

I think anyway that you need to grep for JFIF not JPEG, but that is a 
really poor way to check for a JPEG file. Any text or binary file can 
have a JFIF byte sequence.

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#381508

FromKeith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Date2024-02-01 12:09 -0800
Message-ID<878r44q73s.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com>
In reply to#381500
bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> On 01/02/2024 16:30, Scott Lurndal wrote:
[...]
>> $ if file /tmp/garage.jpg | grep JPEG > /dev/null^Jthen^Jecho "it is a jpeg"^Jfi
>> it is a jpeg
>
> That doesn't work for me:

Not if you type the "^J"s as '^' and 'J'.  They were intended to
represent newlines.  I would use semicolons instead:

    $ if file /tmp/garage.jpg | grep JPEG > /dev/null ; then echo "it is a jpeg" ; fi
    it is a jpeg

(I might also use "grep -q" rather than redirecting to /dev/null.)

[...]

> I think anyway that you need to grep for JFIF not JPEG, but that is a
> really poor way to check for a JPEG file. Any text or binary file can 
> have a JFIF byte sequence.

That's not an issue.  "file" doesn't just look for "JFIF" to determine
that a file is a jpg.

Try running the "file" command on a jpg file.  Its output includes both
"JPEG" and "JFIF".  Try running it on a text file containing the string
"JFIF".

The output of "file" is primarily meant to be human-readable, so
processing it automatically can be tricky, but it's usually doable --
and it also has a "--mime" option if you want more specificity.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Medtronic
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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#381516

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2024-02-01 20:59 +0000
Message-ID<CCTuN.104492$JLvf.67793@fx44.iad>
In reply to#381508
Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> writes:
>bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>> On 01/02/2024 16:30, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>[...]
>>> $ if file /tmp/garage.jpg | grep JPEG > /dev/null^Jthen^Jecho "it is a jpeg"^Jfi
>>> it is a jpeg
>>
>> That doesn't work for me:
>
>Not if you type the "^J"s as '^' and 'J'.  They were intended to
>represent newlines.  I would use semicolons instead:

Yes, that's an artifact of ksh history entries for multiline commands.

I should have edited it before posting.

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#381518

Frombart <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2024-02-01 21:25 +0000
Message-ID<uph28d$27u2h$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381508
On 01/02/2024 20:09, Keith Thompson wrote:
> bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>> On 01/02/2024 16:30, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> [...]
>>> $ if file /tmp/garage.jpg | grep JPEG > /dev/null^Jthen^Jecho "it is a jpeg"^Jfi
>>> it is a jpeg
>>
>> That doesn't work for me:
> 
> Not if you type the "^J"s as '^' and 'J'.  They were intended to
> represent newlines.  I would use semicolons instead:
> 
>      $ if file /tmp/garage.jpg | grep JPEG > /dev/null ; then echo "it is a jpeg" ; fi
>      it is a jpeg
> 
> (I might also use "grep -q" rather than redirecting to /dev/null.)
> 
> [...]
> 
>> I think anyway that you need to grep for JFIF not JPEG, but that is a
>> really poor way to check for a JPEG file. Any text or binary file can
>> have a JFIF byte sequence.
> 
> That's not an issue.  "file" doesn't just look for "JFIF" to determine
> that a file is a jpg.

I see, so 'file' is a special command that does all the work. grep 
checks whether the description contains JPEG. Although it won't work for 
any of my private formats.

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#381519

From"Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com>
Date2024-02-01 13:34 -0800
Message-ID<uph2ol$285r5$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#381518
On 2/1/2024 1:25 PM, bart wrote:
> On 01/02/2024 20:09, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>>> On 01/02/2024 16:30, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> $ if file /tmp/garage.jpg | grep JPEG > /dev/null^Jthen^Jecho "it is 
>>>> a jpeg"^Jfi
>>>> it is a jpeg
>>>
>>> That doesn't work for me:
>>
>> Not if you type the "^J"s as '^' and 'J'.  They were intended to
>> represent newlines.  I would use semicolons instead:
>>
>>      $ if file /tmp/garage.jpg | grep JPEG > /dev/null ; then echo "it 
>> is a jpeg" ; fi
>>      it is a jpeg
>>
>> (I might also use "grep -q" rather than redirecting to /dev/null.)
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I think anyway that you need to grep for JFIF not JPEG, but that is a
>>> really poor way to check for a JPEG file. Any text or binary file can
>>> have a JFIF byte sequence.
>>
>> That's not an issue.  "file" doesn't just look for "JFIF" to determine
>> that a file is a jpg.
> 
> I see, so 'file' is a special command that does all the work. grep 
> checks whether the description contains JPEG. Although it won't work for 
> any of my private formats.
> 
> 

Why would it work with your private formats? ;^)

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