Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation)

Subject	Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation)
Newsgroups	comp.theory, comp.lang.c, comp.ai.philosophy
References	(3 earlier) <LfmdnRXy2Lp9nMzCnZ2dnUU7-QvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <4_ydnav1hZ8u38zCnZ2dnUU7-cPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <fIqdnQSKA8JGzMzCnZ2dnUU78RHNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> <5_-dnZwR9tT4-MzCnZ2dnUU7-QnNnZ2d@giganews.com> <KYednTPrD_Xb8czCnZ2dnUU78VmdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
From	olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com>
Date	2020-09-03 17:31 -0500
Message-ID	<TKudnfR-9s8m88zCnZ2dnUU7-RfNnZ2d@giganews.com> (permalink)

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 9/3/2020 5:20 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
> On 03/09/2020 22:51, olcott wrote:
>> On 9/3/2020 3:28 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>> On 03/09/2020 20:23, Kent Dickey wrote:
>>>> In article <LfmdnRXy2Lp9nMzCnZ2dnUU7-QvNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>> olcott  <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to summarize this, as far as I can tell.
>>>>
>>>> A proof of the impossibility of constructing a Turing Mahcine which can
>>>> determine if all possible Turing Machines complete is at:
>>>> http://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP(Pages_315-320).pdf  Theorem
>>>> 12.1.
>>>> It's well written and easy to read even if you know little about Turing
>>>> Machine, and you don't even need to follow the equations to get the
>>>> idea.
>>>>
>>>> It works by assuming H is the Turing Machine (TM) which can determine
>>>> if any
>>>> other TM halts.  It then constructs an H' by adding two states that
>>>> infinitely loop between each other, and H_Hat by copying the input
>>>> string.
>>>> It shows that running H_Hat on itself (basically) leads to
>>>> contradictions.  Therefore H cannot exist.
>>>>
>>>> I believe olcott believes that if he constucts a Turing Machine which
>>>> can
>>>> detect if some programs halt (call this Turing Machine H2); and then he
>>>> modifies H2 to form H2' and H2_Hat (by adding the extra states that
>>>> H' and
>>>> H_Hat had above) then the contradiction doesn't apply.  And that this
>>>> would
>>>> then show the original proof was wrong.
>>>>
>>>> This is incorrect.  Applying the same construction to his H2 (a TM that
>>>> detects that some programs halt) does not lead to the same
>>>> contradiction, and
>>>> so doesn't "prove" anything.  The contradiction occurs in the original
>>>> proof only since H is defined to work on all TMs, including H_Hat.  
>>>> That
>>>> wouldn't be true of his new H2_Hat, so the same contradiction doesn't
>>>> happen.
>>>> In fact, it would likely be easy to show his H2_Hat leads to no
>>>> contradictions.  But that just shows that H2 can exist (and we know
>>>> it exists,
>>>> he's constructed it).  This doesn't say anything about the original
>>>> proof.
>>>> H2 is not H.
>>>
>>> That's not exactly what's going on.  PO's claim is (or would be, if he
>>> got it right) that:
>>>
>>> a)  his H2_Hat is correcly constructed from H2, according to the
>>> specification in the Linz book that you've read.
>>>
>>> b)  his H2 correctly decides the termination of H2_Hat (H2_Hat).
>>>
>>> Also he claims a bit more: that H2 decides some further classes of
>>> program executions, but notably not ALL program executions.  And also
>>> stuff about H2_Hat deciding something, which doesn't make sense since
>>> H2_Hat is not a "decider" although maybe he has his own meaning for
>>> that word.  It doesn't matter, (a) and (b) are what matters.
>>
>> https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/84433/what-is-decider
>>
>>    The term decider doesn't really have a standard meaning.
>>    In fact, it is lamentable that Sipser chose the terms
>>    decider and recognizer, since they seem to confuse students.
>>
>>    Intuitively, a decider should be a Turing machine that
>>    given an input, halts and either accepts or rejects,
>>    relaying its answer in one of many equivalent ways,
>>    such as halting at an ACCEPT or REJECT state, or leaving
>>    its answer on the output tape.
>  >
> 
> Is that your usage?  Then your H_Hat is not a decider by your definition.
> 

Literally decider means to make a decision at least once. Historical 
computer science usage indicates that any TM that does nothing besides 
immediately halt <is> a decider.

The key thing is that it does correctly decide the "impossible" case in 
a way that a Turing machine would always make the same decision on every 
instance of this "impossible" case that the x86 progam correctly decides.


> Mike.
> 
>>
>> https://cs.stackexchange.com/users/683/yuval-filmus
>> Yuval Filmus top 0.04% overall
>> Assistant Professor in the Department of Computer Science at the 
>> Technion.
> 


-- 
Copyright 2020 Pete Olcott

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Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (Machine equivalence) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 15:19 -0500
  Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 19:17 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-31 08:47 -0500
    Re: Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 007 [Mapping x86 to Turing Equivalent] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 22:30 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (Machine equivalence) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-08-30 20:43 -0400
    Transforming "C" into a Turing equivalent language 001 [Providing unlimited memory access to C] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-08-30 20:21 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 09:55 -0500
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 09:45 -0700
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-02 12:03 -0500
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-03 06:12 -0600
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 09:46 -0500
        Re: Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) - 2020-09-03 14:23 -0500
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-03 21:28 +0100
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 16:51 -0500
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-03 23:20 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 17:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-04 01:56 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 20:15 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 20:29 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-04 02:47 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 21:08 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 22:41 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 03:37 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 08:06 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 06:38 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 08:46 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 07:14 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 09:26 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 08:00 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 10:17 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 08:35 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 11:03 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-04 17:22 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 11:50 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 10:31 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 13:17 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 11:35 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 13:51 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 12:20 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 15:18 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 13:35 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 15:42 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 03:14 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 09:45 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 11:55 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 14:07 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 13:23 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 15:37 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 18:24 -0500
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 15:28 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 16:16 -0500
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 12:05 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-03 22:02 -0500
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-09-03 22:44 -0600
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) red floyd <no.spam.here@its.invalid> - 2020-09-04 11:09 -0700
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-04 13:34 -0500
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 00:21 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-05 09:49 -0400
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 09:34 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-05 11:03 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 11:20 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-05 10:40 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 12:12 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-05 11:42 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 13:17 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-05 12:33 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 14:16 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-05 16:19 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 15:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-05 17:19 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-05 23:01 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-09-05 17:52 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-05 21:12 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 13:08 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 21:49 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2020-09-06 04:35 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 22:50 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 22:58 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-06 08:47 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 11:42 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-06 11:43 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 13:04 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-06 02:31 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-06 21:13 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 17:39 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-06 20:23 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 20:23 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-06 21:51 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 21:10 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-06 16:43 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-06 20:45 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 20:33 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-06 22:10 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 21:16 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-06 22:43 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 21:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-07 10:05 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-07 09:36 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-07 02:05 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 03:08 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-07 10:13 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 07:38 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-07 09:41 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 08:02 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-07 10:30 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 08:42 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-07 10:45 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 09:14 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-09-07 22:23 +0100
                Cranks (was: Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness ...) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-07 05:54 +0000
                Re: Cranks Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-09-08 06:40 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 15:51 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 16:10 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-06 15:11 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-06 21:33 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 20:40 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-09-06 22:30 -0400
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-06 21:45 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-05 15:29 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-05 15:52 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-09-05 15:28 -0600
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation Sufficiency Specs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-09-05 00:40 -0500
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (HP refutation) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 12:32 -0700
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V52 (Machine equivalence) adultfriendfindercom08@gmail.com - 2020-09-04 04:51 -0700

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