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Re: Threads across programming languages

From Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: Threads across programming languages
Date 2024-06-03 19:30 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <86mso1mocy.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <86cyppru3q.fsf@linuxsc.com> <v1vfqf$4eq2$1@dont-email.me> <f919090a93e5ab7c32c8961a6061c9e6e38c8fc4.camel@gmail.com> <v1vs6e$7b2f$1@dont-email.me> <126394fbbc6a61aa1257379032ed4fc43689a61c.camel@gmail.com>

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wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 2024-05-14 at 16:24 +0200, David Brown wrote:
>
>> On 14/05/2024 13:46, wij wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 2024-05-14 at 13:53 +0300, Paavo Helde wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 14.05.2024 05:43, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07.05.2024 01:13, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> C++ doesn't need nested functions because it has lambdas, which
>>>>>>> are effectively equivalent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lambdas are better than nested functions as one can specify explicitly
>>>>>> which variables are shared and how.  One can be lazy and pass [&], but
>>>>>> one doesn't have to.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me that sounds like all the complications of nested functions,
>>>>> and more besides, and no real advantages.  The choice of which
>>>>> variables to share is syntactic sugar, there is no difference
>>>>> in expressive power.
>>>>
>>>> Most of what programming languages do is syntactic sugar.  For just
>>>> writing Turing complete code one programming language would be enough.
>>>
>>> The primary goal of high level language should be for reducing software
>>> development/maintenance cost.
>>
>> Yes.  And the main way to do that is to reduce the risk of errors
>> passing into later stages of development.  A language (and the
>> programmer using the language) should aim to make it easy to write good
>> code, hard to write bad code, easy to see that good code is good, and
>> easy to see that bad code is bad.
>
> Sounds like Bjarne Stroustrup's tongue.  But I don't feel C++ is steering
> in that way.  Since C++11 many features do not feel like what BS says in his
> book.
>
>> "Syntactic sugar" is vital to this effort.  And a key source of "power"
>> of a language is not in what it allows you do to, but in what it stops
>> you from doing, or allows you to restrict yourself.  For example, often
>> a correct program will work just as correctly, and just as efficiently,
>> if all uses of "const" are removed.  The "const" does not add to the
>> things the language can do - it helps by restricting the errors you can
>> make when using the language.
>
> I agree what you say, but pretty much every high level language would say
> the same (how about BASIC?).  I am more concerned about the practical side.
>
>> So Tim is completely wrong to say that specifying the variables
>> accessible in a lambda gives "no real advantages".  It doesn't give the
>> compiler's code /generator/ any more information than it can deduce
>> itself from [&] or [=], but it gives more information to the compiler's
>> code /checker/ and to human programmers - those are big advantages and
>> greater expressive power.

Besides being self-centered, rude, arrogant, and generally careless
in both his thinking and his writing, David Brown has misunderstood
the meaning of my comments above.

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Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 20:34 +0000
  Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 05:45 +0200
    Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-02 15:53 +0200
      Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 17:10 +0200
        Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:24 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 09:38 +0200
          Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:58 +0200
            Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 11:18 +0200
              Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 13:23 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:01 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 17:18 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:20 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-04 20:41 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-05 01:41 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-05 10:38 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-05 12:37 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-05 13:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-13 00:43 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-13 15:04 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-13 16:52 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-17 22:18 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-17 22:17 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-06 15:13 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-07 08:41 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-07 11:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-13 19:43 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 04:59 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 16:39 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-14 13:53 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 13:42 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 19:55 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 14:11 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 20:16 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 16:02 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 13:34 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 19:46 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 14:13 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 20:28 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-14 16:24 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 03:29 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-14 23:34 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 08:31 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 18:16 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:26 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 11:06 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 16:34 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 18:43 -0500
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:25 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 20:48 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:23 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 21:37 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 19:57 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 20:07 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 17:33 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 08:43 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 17:55 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 10:31 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-15 11:20 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 22:38 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 20:46 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 21:51 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-03 19:30 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-04 09:03 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-15 14:24 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 19:26 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 20:27 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-22 11:43 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-01 21:03 -0700
    Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:21 +0000
      Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 08:45 +0200
        Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:05 +0200
          Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:09 +0200
        Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 02:33 +0000
          Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:05 -0700
            Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:07 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:09 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 06:00 +0200
            Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:19 -0700
            Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-05 01:40 +0000
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 22:23 -0700
  Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 05:39 +0000
    Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 07:53 +0200
      Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:16 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:00 +0200
          Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 02:30 +0000
            Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:36 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 04:46 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:50 -0700
            Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 06:00 +0200
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:27 -0700
    Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 13:28 -0700
      Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:15 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 16:58 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-03 00:15 +0000
            Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 17:22 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 00:07 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 02:25 +0000
            Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 12:33 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-07 20:48 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 10:34 +0200
            Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:05 +0300
              Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 17:20 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:47 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:19 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-04 00:27 +0100
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-04 22:04 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-05 14:56 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 17:36 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-04 22:11 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 12:59 -0700
  Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 22:20 -0700
    Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 22:22 -0700

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