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Re: Threads across programming languages

From	wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: Threads across programming languages
Date	2024-05-15 03:29 +0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<126394fbbc6a61aa1257379032ed4fc43689a61c.camel@gmail.com> (permalink)
References	(20 earlier) <v1cetc$33b2i$1@dont-email.me> <86cyppru3q.fsf@linuxsc.com> <v1vfqf$4eq2$1@dont-email.me> <f919090a93e5ab7c32c8961a6061c9e6e38c8fc4.camel@gmail.com> <v1vs6e$7b2f$1@dont-email.me>

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On Tue, 2024-05-14 at 16:24 +0200, David Brown wrote:
> On 14/05/2024 13:46, wij wrote:
> > On Tue, 2024-05-14 at 13:53 +0300, Paavo Helde wrote:
> > > On 14.05.2024 05:43, Tim Rentsch wrote:
> > > > Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> writes:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 07.05.2024 01:13, Tim Rentsch wrote:
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > C++ doesn't need nested functions because it has lambdas, which
> > > > > > are effectively equivalent.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Lambdas are better than nested functions as one can specify explicitly
> > > > > which variables are shared and how.  One can be lazy and pass [&], but
> > > > > one doesn't have to.
> > > > 
> > > > To me that sounds like all the complications of nested functions,
> > > > and more besides, and no real advantages.  The choice of which
> > > > variables to share is syntactic sugar, there is no difference
> > > > in expressive power.
> > > 
> > > Most of what programming languages do is syntactic sugar. For just
> > > writing Turing complete code one programming language would be enough.
> > > 
> > 
> > The primary goal of high level language should be for reducing software
> > development/maintenance cost.
> 
> Yes.  And the main way to do that is to reduce the risk of errors 
> passing into later stages of development.  A language (and the 
> programmer using the language) should aim to make it easy to write good 
> code, hard to write bad code, easy to see that good code is good, and 
> easy to see that bad code is bad.

Sounds like Bjarne Stroustrup's tongue. But I don't feel C++ is steering
in that way. Since C++11 many features do not feel like what BS says in his 
book.

> "Syntactic sugar" is vital to this effort.  And a key source of "power" 
> of a language is not in what it allows you do to, but in what it stops 
> you from doing, or allows you to restrict yourself.  For example, often 
> a correct program will work just as correctly, and just as efficiently, 
> if all uses of "const" are removed.  The "const" does not add to the 
> things the language can do - it helps by restricting the errors you can 
> make when using the language.

I agree what you say, but pretty much every high level language would say 
the same (how about BASIC?). I am more concerned about the practical side.

> So Tim is completely wrong to say that specifying the variables 
> accessible in a lambda gives "no real advantages".  It doesn't give the 
> compiler's code /generator/ any more information than it can deduce 
> itself from [&] or [=], but it gives more information to the compiler's 
> code /checker/ and to human programmers - those are big advantages and 
> greater expressive power.

Probably. I now still hesitate whether or not I should learn and adopt C++'s 
lambda expression. My consideration is that many new features after C++11 
are not really necessary and the burden may be greater than the gain for me.

> > Cpp is just having too many 'syntactic sugars'
> > (and keep on adding it) to be away from this goal, IMO.
> 
> C++ is a very big language, and gains new features (in the language and 
> standard library) every three years.  While some features make it easier 
> to write better code, backwards compatibility means it is rarely 
> possible to remove features that are no longer necessary.  Thus if you 
> want to be able to read and understand all the syntax of C++, it gets 
> more effort.  But if you are in the position to be able to deal with C++ 
> code using only the features you find useful and like, then that is much 
> less of an issue.  

I am not optimistic about the future of C++. 

> It's primarily when dealing with smart-arse 
> programmers like Bonita that it is a real problem.  (But such 
> programmers can also write smart-arse code in C and any other language 
> they use.)
> 
> > Putting the 'expressivness' aside, I think cpp cannot complete with C and
> > Assembly if measuring the compiled code size and speed. But I still like to
> > program in cpp for my own reasons.
> > 
> 
> If your C++ code is more than marginally slower than equivalent C code 
> in situations where the speed is important, then you are using C++ 
> incorrectly.  It's not uncommon for C++ to pull in a whole lot of extra 
> library code, but that is rarely significant on PC's or other "big" 
> computers.
> 
> It is perhaps easier to accidentally write code that is big and slow in 
> C++ than it is in C, but it is certainly not necessary.

My concern is that C++ codes typically consumes more memory much less
proportional than the speed gain. Basically, time*space=constant, which is
especially observable for computation intensive problems. I am more concerned
about the cost of problem solving instead of plain code analysis.

> And while it occasionally makes sense to use assembly for the most 
> time-critical parts of code, it is very common for clear, maintainable C 
> or C++ code to be /faster/ than clear, maintainable assembly code.
> 
> Unless you are dealing with something that makes use of processor 
> instructions or features that are unknown to the C/C++ compiler, writing 
> assembly code that is faster than C or C++ will often require such 
> specific care for things like instruction scheduling, register pressure, 
> cache prefetching, etc., than your results will be far from clear or 
> maintainable.  And by the time you've got it working, the end user has 
> bought a new PC and the processor has different numbers of execution 
> units and more specialised instructions.  You can re-write much of the 
> assembly, or you can re-compile your C/C++ with a different "-march=" flag.

To me, there is no clear cut saying which (assembly or C/C++) is better just
from the view point of common capabilities mutual to low/high level languages.
(there are many capabilities C/C++ cannot do, typically involving hardware
capabilities, virus, anti-interference, simulation,...)
It all depends on what kind of application is desired.
Generally, I feel software projects within 6-man-month are no difference from
the language choice. One can also program assembly as fast.
Those said, I retired earily (at about 37), I use C++ exclusively since then.  
Many are from my memory and what I received and my observations.

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Thread

Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-29 19:13 +0300
  Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-04-29 20:29 +0000
    Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-29 13:33 -0700
      Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-04-29 22:41 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-29 16:46 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-04-30 00:11 +0000
      Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 06:54 +0200
        Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 07:10 +0000
          Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 10:13 +0200
            Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 08:53 +0000
              Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 10:59 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 20:34 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 05:45 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-02 15:53 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 17:10 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:24 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 09:38 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:58 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 11:18 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 13:23 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:01 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 17:18 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:20 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-04 20:41 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-05 01:41 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-05 10:38 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-05 12:37 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-05 13:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-13 00:43 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-13 15:04 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-13 16:52 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-17 22:18 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-17 22:17 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-06 15:13 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-07 08:41 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-07 11:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-13 19:43 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 04:59 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 16:39 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-14 13:53 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 13:42 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 19:55 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 14:11 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 20:16 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 16:02 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 13:34 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 19:46 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 14:13 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 20:28 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-14 16:24 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 03:29 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-14 23:34 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 08:31 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 18:16 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:26 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 11:06 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 16:34 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 18:43 -0500
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:25 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 20:48 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:23 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 21:37 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 19:57 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 20:07 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 17:33 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 08:43 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 17:55 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 10:31 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-15 11:20 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 22:38 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 20:46 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 21:51 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-03 19:30 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-04 09:03 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-15 14:24 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 19:26 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 20:27 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-22 11:43 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-01 21:03 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:21 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 08:45 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:05 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:09 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 02:33 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:05 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:07 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:09 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 06:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:19 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-05 01:40 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 22:23 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 05:39 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 07:53 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:16 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 02:30 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:36 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 04:46 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:50 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 06:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:27 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 13:28 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:15 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 16:58 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-03 00:15 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 17:22 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 00:07 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 02:25 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 12:33 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-07 20:48 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 10:34 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:05 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 17:20 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:47 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:19 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-04 00:27 +0100
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-04 22:04 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-05 14:56 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 17:36 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-04 22:11 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 12:59 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 22:20 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 22:22 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 11:55 -0700
        Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 11:55 -0700
    Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 06:53 +0200
      Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 07:09 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 10:11 +0200
          Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 08:53 +0000
            Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 11:00 +0200
              Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 20:31 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-01 21:00 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-02 00:05 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 23:05 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 05:46 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 13:33 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:22 +0000
  Re: Threads across programming languages scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-30 16:48 +0000

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