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Re: Threads across programming languages

From Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: Threads across programming languages
Date 2024-06-01 21:03 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <86y17ong7u.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <v1cetc$33b2i$1@dont-email.me> <86cyppru3q.fsf@linuxsc.com> <v1vfqf$4eq2$1@dont-email.me> <86ikz6wmoo.fsf@linuxsc.com> <v2kb74$13m2s$1@dont-email.me>

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Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> writes:

> On 22.05.2024 06:27, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>
>> Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> writes:
>>
>>> On 14.05.2024 05:43, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 07.05.2024 01:13, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C++ doesn't need nested functions because it has lambdas, which
>>>>>> are effectively equivalent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lambdas are better than nested functions as one can specify explicitly
>>>>> which variables are shared and how.  One can be lazy and pass [&], but
>>>>> one doesn't have to.
>>>>
>>>> To me that sounds like all the complications of nested functions,
>>>> and more besides, and no real advantages.  The choice of which
>>>> variables to share is syntactic sugar, there is no difference
>>>> in expressive power.
>>>
>>> Most of what programming languages do is syntactic sugar.
>>
>> You must mean something different by "syntactic sugar" than I
>> do.
>
> Just to clarify, for example many programming languages have syntax
> for defining functions or subroutines, which IMO can be viewed as
> syntactic sugar over JMP/GOTO which could be used instead.
>
> What the heck, even having named variables is syntactic sugar over
> numeric memory slots.  I recall the programs written for programmable
> calculators in 1980-s did not provide such a luxury as variable names.

The problem here is that this notion of what "syntactic sugar"
means would make the term almost meaningless.  It is well-known
that Turing completeness can be based on a very small number of
primitive operations, and in fact, that number can be one.  It's
ridiculous to say all programming languages are just syntactic
sugar over a single operation.

Furthermore, this notion of "syntactic sugar" is at odds with
widespread and common usage.  Look up "Syntactic sugar" on
Wikipedia.

>>> For just writing Turing complete code one programming language
>>> would be enough.
>>
>> That statement is true but irrelevant.  C++ and PostScript
>> are both Turing complete, but it's absurd to suggest that
>> there are no significant differences between them.
>
> Absolutely agree, and most what makes them different is syntactic
> sugar.

That is utter nonsense.  No one else thinks that.

> Adding numbers happens by the same CPU operations both in C++ and
> PostScript, but there is an enormous difference in how one has to
> write the orders to get these numbers added.

That's completely beside the point.  To give one example, C++
has exceptions, and C does not.  There is no simple and direct
mapping from C++ exceptions to the C language.  There is no
modest syntactic layer that could be put on top of C so that
it would then have exceptions.  The gap is semantic, not just
syntactic.  What you are saying is that they are operationally
equivalent.  Sure, but the transformation to get from one to
the other is a lot more than just syntax.  That is the point
of the phrase SYNTACTIC sugar - it means only a modest difference
that is purely syntactic, and not involving significant semantic
disparities.

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Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 20:34 +0000
  Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 05:45 +0200
    Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-02 15:53 +0200
      Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 17:10 +0200
        Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:24 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 09:38 +0200
          Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:58 +0200
            Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 11:18 +0200
              Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 13:23 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:01 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 17:18 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:20 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-04 20:41 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-05 01:41 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-05 10:38 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-05 12:37 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-05 13:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-13 00:43 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-13 15:04 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-13 16:52 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-17 22:18 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-17 22:17 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-06 15:13 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-07 08:41 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-07 11:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-13 19:43 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 04:59 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 16:39 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-14 13:53 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 13:42 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 19:55 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 14:11 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 20:16 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 16:02 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 13:34 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 19:46 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 14:13 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 20:28 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-14 16:24 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 03:29 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-14 23:34 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 08:31 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 18:16 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:26 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 11:06 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 16:34 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 18:43 -0500
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:25 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 20:48 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:23 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 21:37 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 19:57 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 20:07 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 17:33 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 08:43 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 17:55 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 10:31 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-15 11:20 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 22:38 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 20:46 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 21:51 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-03 19:30 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-04 09:03 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-15 14:24 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 19:26 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 20:27 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-22 11:43 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-01 21:03 -0700
    Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:21 +0000
      Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 08:45 +0200
        Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:05 +0200
          Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:09 +0200
        Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 02:33 +0000
          Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:05 -0700
            Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:07 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:09 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 06:00 +0200
            Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:19 -0700
            Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-05 01:40 +0000
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 22:23 -0700
  Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 05:39 +0000
    Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 07:53 +0200
      Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:16 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:00 +0200
          Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 02:30 +0000
            Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:36 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 04:46 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:50 -0700
            Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 06:00 +0200
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:27 -0700
    Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 13:28 -0700
      Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:15 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 16:58 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-03 00:15 +0000
            Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 17:22 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 00:07 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 02:25 +0000
            Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 12:33 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-07 20:48 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 10:34 +0200
            Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:05 +0300
              Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 17:20 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:47 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:19 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-04 00:27 +0100
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-04 22:04 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-05 14:56 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 17:36 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-04 22:11 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 12:59 -0700
  Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 22:20 -0700
    Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 22:22 -0700

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