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Re: Threads across programming languages

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: Threads across programming languages
Date 2024-05-14 16:24 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <v1vs6e$7b2f$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (19 earlier) <86ikzqtwqr.fsf@linuxsc.com> <v1cetc$33b2i$1@dont-email.me> <86cyppru3q.fsf@linuxsc.com> <v1vfqf$4eq2$1@dont-email.me> <f919090a93e5ab7c32c8961a6061c9e6e38c8fc4.camel@gmail.com>

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On 14/05/2024 13:46, wij wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-05-14 at 13:53 +0300, Paavo Helde wrote:
>> On 14.05.2024 05:43, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>> Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 07.05.2024 01:13, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C++ doesn't need nested functions because it has lambdas, which
>>>>> are effectively equivalent.
>>>>
>>>> Lambdas are better than nested functions as one can specify explicitly
>>>> which variables are shared and how.  One can be lazy and pass [&], but
>>>> one doesn't have to.
>>>
>>> To me that sounds like all the complications of nested functions,
>>> and more besides, and no real advantages.  The choice of which
>>> variables to share is syntactic sugar, there is no difference
>>> in expressive power.
>>
>> Most of what programming languages do is syntactic sugar. For just
>> writing Turing complete code one programming language would be enough.
>>
> 
> The primary goal of high level language should be for reducing software
> development/maintenance cost.

Yes.  And the main way to do that is to reduce the risk of errors 
passing into later stages of development.  A language (and the 
programmer using the language) should aim to make it easy to write good 
code, hard to write bad code, easy to see that good code is good, and 
easy to see that bad code is bad.

"Syntactic sugar" is vital to this effort.  And a key source of "power" 
of a language is not in what it allows you do to, but in what it stops 
you from doing, or allows you to restrict yourself.  For example, often 
a correct program will work just as correctly, and just as efficiently, 
if all uses of "const" are removed.  The "const" does not add to the 
things the language can do - it helps by restricting the errors you can 
make when using the language.

So Tim is completely wrong to say that specifying the variables 
accessible in a lambda gives "no real advantages".  It doesn't give the 
compiler's code /generator/ any more information than it can deduce 
itself from [&] or [=], but it gives more information to the compiler's 
code /checker/ and to human programmers - those are big advantages and 
greater expressive power.

> Cpp is just having too many 'syntactic sugars'
> (and keep on adding it) to be away from this goal, IMO.

C++ is a very big language, and gains new features (in the language and 
standard library) every three years.  While some features make it easier 
to write better code, backwards compatibility means it is rarely 
possible to remove features that are no longer necessary.  Thus if you 
want to be able to read and understand all the syntax of C++, it gets 
more effort.  But if you are in the position to be able to deal with C++ 
code using only the features you find useful and like, then that is much 
less of an issue.  It's primarily when dealing with smart-arse 
programmers like Bonita that it is a real problem.  (But such 
programmers can also write smart-arse code in C and any other language 
they use.)

> Putting the 'expressivness' aside, I think cpp cannot complete with C and
> Assembly if measuring the compiled code size and speed. But I still like to
> program in cpp for my own reasons.
> 

If your C++ code is more than marginally slower than equivalent C code 
in situations where the speed is important, then you are using C++ 
incorrectly.  It's not uncommon for C++ to pull in a whole lot of extra 
library code, but that is rarely significant on PC's or other "big" 
computers.

It is perhaps easier to accidentally write code that is big and slow in 
C++ than it is in C, but it is certainly not necessary.

And while it occasionally makes sense to use assembly for the most 
time-critical parts of code, it is very common for clear, maintainable C 
or C++ code to be /faster/ than clear, maintainable assembly code.

Unless you are dealing with something that makes use of processor 
instructions or features that are unknown to the C/C++ compiler, writing 
assembly code that is faster than C or C++ will often require such 
specific care for things like instruction scheduling, register pressure, 
cache prefetching, etc., than your results will be far from clear or 
maintainable.  And by the time you've got it working, the end user has 
bought a new PC and the processor has different numbers of execution 
units and more specialised instructions.  You can re-write much of the 
assembly, or you can re-compile your C/C++ with a different "-march=" flag.

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Thread

Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-29 19:13 +0300
  Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-04-29 20:29 +0000
    Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-29 13:33 -0700
      Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-04-29 22:41 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-29 16:46 -0700
          Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-04-30 00:11 +0000
      Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 06:54 +0200
        Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 07:10 +0000
          Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 10:13 +0200
            Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 08:53 +0000
              Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 10:59 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 20:34 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 05:45 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-02 15:53 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 17:10 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:24 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 09:38 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:58 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 11:18 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 13:23 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:01 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 17:18 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:20 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-04 20:41 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-05 01:41 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-05 10:38 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-05 12:37 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-05 13:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-13 00:43 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-13 15:04 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-13 16:52 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-17 22:18 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-17 22:17 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-06 15:13 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-07 08:41 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-07 11:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-13 19:43 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 04:59 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 16:39 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-14 13:53 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 13:42 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 19:55 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 14:11 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 20:16 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 16:02 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 13:34 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 19:46 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 14:13 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 20:28 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-14 16:24 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 03:29 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-14 23:34 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 08:31 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 18:16 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:26 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 11:06 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 16:34 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 18:43 -0500
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:25 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 20:48 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 06:23 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-14 21:37 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 19:57 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 20:07 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 17:33 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 08:43 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 17:55 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 10:31 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-15 11:20 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 22:38 +0800
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-15 20:46 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-15 21:51 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-03 19:30 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-04 09:03 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-15 14:24 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 19:26 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-05-21 20:27 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-05-22 11:43 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-01 21:03 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:21 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 08:45 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:05 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:09 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 02:33 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:05 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:07 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:09 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 06:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:19 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-05 01:40 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 22:23 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 05:39 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 07:53 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:16 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 09:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 02:30 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 20:36 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-04 04:46 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:50 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 06:00 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 21:27 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 13:28 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-02 23:15 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 16:58 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-03 00:15 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 17:22 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 00:07 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 02:25 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 12:33 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-05-07 20:48 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-03 10:34 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:05 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-03 17:20 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-03 18:47 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:19 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-05-04 00:27 +0100
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-04 22:04 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-05 14:56 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 17:36 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-04 22:11 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 12:59 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 22:20 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 22:22 -0700
              Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 11:55 -0700
        Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 11:55 -0700
    Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 06:53 +0200
      Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 07:09 +0000
        Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 10:11 +0200
          Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 08:53 +0000
            Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-01 11:00 +0200
              Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 20:31 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-05-01 21:00 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-05-02 00:05 +0300
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-01 23:05 +0000
                Re: Threads across programming languages Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 05:46 +0200
                Re: Threads across programming languages "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 13:33 -0700
                Re: Threads across programming languages Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-05-03 22:22 +0000
  Re: Threads across programming languages scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-30 16:48 +0000

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