Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

From	Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Debian supports pridemonth?
Date	2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
Message-ID	<yfmXv-789-7@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<ydVZn-2qr-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <yfcY9-YF-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <yfmuu-6It-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
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Martin Steigerwald - 02.07.19, 10:35:
> Russ Allbery - 02.07.19, 00:26:
> > Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:
> > > It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are excluded from
> > > being welcomed.
> > > 
> > > Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men?
> > 
> > Do you think people with those attributes have been made
> > systematically unwelcome in Debian, free software, or the larger
> > world of computing?
> 
> How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their
> skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints,
> their appearance?
> 
> How about "all is welcome here"?
> 
> Of course that does not mean to tolerate abusive behavior. It is of
> course important to set healthy boundaries by having a netiquette
> and/or a code of conduct that makes sense and actually enforce it.
> 
> Love it not license. I can still love someone and set boundaries. I
> can still love someone and leave or ask them to leave.
> 
> How about even extending that month of welcoming *all* contributors
> to… quite a long time?
> 
> How about looking at what is needed to make *all* contributors be
> welcome here?

As this could be read as "Debian does not welcome everyone"… I'd like to 
add a bit about the motivation of my post:

Actually it was motivated by my impression that some contributors indeed 
felt marginalized, not welcomed by highlighting / supporting / promoting 
pridemonth in this way. And I had the impression of attempts to discuss 
this away.

For me it is important to first accept that. Welcome it. And then go from 
there. Even if you do not agree with it. Agree to disagree.

That still means that pridemonth can be highlighted… but it is important 
to at least acknowledge how some feel about it.

Actually I felt something like similar like this myself before (not 
related to the pridemonth thing). There still a lot of oppression of 
women and a lack of progress on equal pay for equal work and so on… I 
acknowledge that. On the other hand with everything around feminism… I 
sometimes wondered "So as a male I cannot have any feelings of being 
excluded or unwelcome cause I am a member of a dominant group"? What if, 
just what if I do not buy into that crap, but I am still made a member 
of a group I do not identify with? This is violence as well. And beware 
if I would even be a white male. Then I better shut up, cause… I am a 
member of that dominant, violent, aggressive group. But what if, just 
what if not every white, heterosexual male is violent or aggressive? I 
even asked myself whether I would even be a man if I cannot see me as a 
member of that group.

How about seeing what is beyond this? What do I see when I move beyond 
those labels? What if am neither this body nor this mind? And what if 
none of those labels actually refer to who I really am?

And how about power with one another instead of power over one another? 
For me this is a key ingredient for being inclusive.

Feelings are just feelings. When they are there, denying them does not 
make them go away. On the other hand they are not the truth.

One of the best things to do with them is to welcome them and see what 
happens then.

I am not wrong for having felt what I described above. And so no one 
else is wrong about having felt or feeling in any particular way.

Best.
-- 
Martin

Thread

Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:10 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 12:40 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 14:00 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-06-28 14:20 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 06:20 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-06-29 13:00 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 21:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 01:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 18:50 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 19:20 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-01 19:50 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 21:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-02 16:00 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 23:40 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 00:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 10:40 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:00 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> - 2019-07-02 17:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
                Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:40 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 18:10 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 20:10 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-06 21:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-06 21:40 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 23:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-07 00:40 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-07 10:30 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:10 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 17:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
                Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-02 23:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 14:10 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@rince.de> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 17:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 15:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 18:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 19:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 20:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 21:10 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 22:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 23:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2019-07-04 10:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:10 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 12:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them "Chris Lamb" <lamby@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 17:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Mark Brown <broonie@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-16 10:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 10:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 14:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2019-07-04 15:20 +0200
                What can I do if I disagree with  a Delegate's Decision Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-08 18:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 15:30 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 20:30 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2019-07-01 20:50 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 01:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 01:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 02:40 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 06:20 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-01 20:40 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 18:20 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:50 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 17:10 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 18:10 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:00 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:30 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 16:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-06-28 16:20 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 15:40 +0200

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