Re: Censorship in Debian

From	Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Censorship in Debian
Date	2019-01-08 10:20 +0100
Message-ID	<xdVId-37Q-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On 1/7/19 10:58 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:

> Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> writes:
>
>> I think you're minimizing the level of investment & commitment it takes
>> to either use Debian, particularly in production, and even more,
>> minimizing the efforts of upstream, and kernel, developers upon whom
>> Debian ultimately depends.
> I really don't think I am, particularly since I've also done many of those
> things, but I'm also a bit baffled as to why you think that you should get
> to decide what I do with my volunteer time when you're not paying me.  I
> mean, that's really what this comes down to.  Of *course* the people who
> are members of the Debian project have the primary say it what it does.

I am not asserting any right to decide what you do with your volunteer time.

What I am asserting is that the Debian Social Contract explicitly states 
that:

"4. Our priorities are our users and free software

We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software 
community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We 
will support the needs of our users for operation in many different 
kinds of computing environments ... "

I DO assert that, as one user, I don't see this being honored in the 
breach, with decisions around systemd, and init-system-neutrality being 
in direct opposition to this principal.

I also suggest that users, and the "free software community" do not have 
a voice in the matter.

As to "Of *course* the people who are members of the Debian project have 
the primary say it what it does."  That does not necessarily follow.  
There are plenty of cases, in purely voluntary organizations, where 
Trustees (elected or otherwise) are expected to represent the interests 
of the broader community, and/or the broader mission of an 
organization.  An awful lot of organizations fail when current office 
holders become to insular and unresponsive.

>
>> There are also those who contribute by providing support - e.g.,
>> answering user questions on Debian lists.
> And those people can join the project as voting members so that they can
> have a say.  (I would love to see more of that, in fact; it's important to
> include people in our community who do other things than package.)
>
>> As far as I can tell, the only people who count, in Debian decision
>> making, are packagers - which strikes me as a rather bizarre case of the
>> tail wagging the dog.
> Seriously, if you want control over something that you use, you have to
> put resources into it, whether that is time or money.  You can purchase
> something and have the influence of a customer and whatever contract you
> can get, or you can put in sweat equity and get a voice that way.  Those
> are pretty much your choices, apart from government-controlled projects.
> This isn't a very radical concept.

Sure.  But in an environment as convoluted as the FOSS ecosystem, where 
and how one contributes can become pretty indirect.  For example, Debian 
depends rather heavily on the Linux kernel, the gnu tools, hosting by 
the OSU OSL - do they have a seat at the table?  What about people who 
contribute to the MoinMoin wiki, used by the Debian project?

>> I remain amazed how much the impacts on users, systems administrators,
>> and upstream developers were dismissed as irrelevant.
> You list those things as if they're somehow distinct, when many (most,
> probably) Debian Developers are all of those things.

I was watching the discussion on systemd fairly closely.  I could be 
wrong, but very little of the discussions over systemd seemed to reflect 
folks who managed production servers, or kernel developers, or 
developers of key backend software (Apache, MySQL, Postfix, Sympa, ...).

>
>> On a larger note, I point to the IETF as an example of a much larger
>> community, running huge infrastructure, where pretty much anyone who
>> shows up has a voice.
> Do you know how the IETF funding model works, and how the Debian funding
> model works?  You do know that the parent organization of the IETF has
> paid employees, right?

Yes.  Yes I do.  I also know that that ISOC was created, nominally as a 
membership organization, but no more, to create a home for the IETF 
outside of the US Government.  It's the IETF secretariat, or whatever 
it's called these days, that mostly has paid staff.  And... so?

>
> The IETF is a lot more like the Linux Foundation than it is like Debian.
> And that model has its place in the world, but I wouldn't be a Debian
> Developer if Debian were funded and run that way.
>
>> I'm sorry to say this, but the only value that Debian provides to the
>> world, is packaging.  And, personally, over time, I've found it more and
>> more necessary to download, build, and compile from source - reducing
>> the value of Debian.
>> Pretty soon, I expect I'll be migrating.
> Okay?  I mean, you say that like you expect me to be upset, but I'm
> totally okay with that, and I wish you the best of luck with whatever
> operating system you migrate to.
>
> I've said this before, but I think it's an important reality check: it
> doesn't matter nearly as much who uses Debian, or how many people use
> Debian, because we are not a company or a product, we don't sell
> something, we're not trying to make a profit or maintain some growth
> curve, and we're not part of this capitalist system.  We are building a
> Linux distribution, to a very large extent, for each other, and
> delightfully other people also find it useful.  Sometimes those people
> even join us!  Which is great!

Well, I'll go back to the Social Contract - "We will be guided by the 
needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their 
interests first in our priorities."  If you're not upset when folks 
abandon Debian, or fork it, or stop recommending it.

>
> But we are delightfully not beholden to anyone outside the project, apart
> from the much-appreciated donations of funding and equipment of course,
> for our goals or even our survival.  Which means that we can have a much
> more collaborative, communal decision-making process that doesn't obsess
> over market share or retaining or monetizing every individual user.
>
>> And, next time I do any serious developing, I expect the only init
>> scripts I'll provide are sysvinit based.  That suggests that my platform
>> will be something other than Debian.
> I hope you have fun and enjoy that platform!  I'm very glad that you will
> be able to find a platform that is a better fit for you.
>
-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Thread

Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-20 22:50 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2018-12-20 23:20 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2018-12-20 23:20 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-21 00:20 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 00:50 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-21 01:30 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 01:50 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2019-01-04 14:40 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-04 15:00 +0100
              Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 19:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 19:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 20:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 21:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 13:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au> - 2019-01-05 05:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 05:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-05 18:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-06 00:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 01:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-07 19:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-07 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> - 2019-01-10 00:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-10 01:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2019-01-10 06:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-10 15:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-10 21:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-10 22:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Matthew Vernon <matthew@debian.org> - 2019-01-10 23:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-11 12:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Matthew Vernon <matthewv@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-11 14:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-11 20:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-01-12 00:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-11 18:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-10 01:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-04 19:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 20:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-04 20:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 20:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-04 21:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 07:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-06 23:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-07 17:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-07 17:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian <flackjacket5@tutanota.com> - 2019-01-07 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-07 19:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 02:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 02:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-01-08 02:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 04:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 04:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-08 04:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 16:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 05:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 05:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 10:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 03:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 04:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 05:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 10:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 11:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 11:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Christian Kastner <ckk@kvr.at> - 2019-01-08 12:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-08 14:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 18:20 +0100
                [OT] distributions without systemd (was: Re: Censorship in Debian) Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-08 20:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] distributions without systemd Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 21:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-08 20:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 20:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2019-01-08 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2019-01-05 21:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-05 22:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 23:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 23:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 13:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-06 20:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2019-01-06 17:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martín Ferrari <tincho@tincho.org> - 2019-01-08 13:10 +0100
              Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 21:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 22:10 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-01-04 23:50 +0100
              Re: Censorship in Debian Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-01-05 02:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 02:30 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 08:10 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2018-12-21 11:30 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2018-12-21 01:50 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-21 09:40 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Chris Lamb <lamby@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 12:10 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Geert Stappers <stappers@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 19:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> - 2018-12-22 19:30 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 09:30 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2018-12-21 04:50 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 10:10 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2018-12-23 21:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Marcin Kulisz <debian@kulisz.net> - 2018-12-24 10:20 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-24 13:00 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 04:00 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2018-12-25 17:40 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 00:00 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 00:20 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2018-12-29 06:40 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> - 2018-12-29 09:30 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 09:40 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 09:50 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2018-12-26 14:40 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2018-12-28 07:50 +0100
        Re: Cyberbullying (was: Censorship) in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-29 00:30 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2018-12-26 15:50 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2018-12-26 16:00 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2018-12-26 17:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2018-12-27 03:40 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2018-12-27 17:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2018-12-27 14:50 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2018-12-28 08:50 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> - 2018-12-29 01:30 +0100

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