Re: Censorship in Debian

From	Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Censorship in Debian
Date	2019-01-04 20:20 +0100
Message-ID	<xcDaF-47B-7@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<x7emB-2to-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <xcCxY-3EP-25@gated-at.bofh.it> <xcCRj-3LF-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
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On Friday, January 04, 2019 10:55:51 AM Russ Allbery wrote:
> Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:
> > Nonsense unless you define being an adult as completely and fully
> > understanding exactly what the hundreds of people around the world think
> > is reasonable.
> 
> Anyone who has held down a job in a typical workplace has already shown
> that they can understand what's reasonable and adjust to a social
> environment well enough to do just fine in Debian.  (And yes, I realize
> that's *also* a challenging environment for some folks, and in a lot of
> cases we can be *more* welcoming than that, but I think it's being aware
> of that baseline.)
> 
> > I suspect we agree on more than we disagree in this area, but I don't
> > think "My way or the highway" is the right answer beyond a certain point
> > in a worldwide project like this.
> 
> It's certainly not "my" way -- it's some sort of consensus emergent
> standards among all of us, which changes in the complicated and intricate
> ways of all human communities.  But every community has standards of
> behavior and social consequences, whether formal or informal, for
> violating them.  There exists no place on earth in which you can say
> literally whatever you want with zero consequences, because humans are a
> social species and we interact with each other and those communities
> involve making judgments about who we include and don't.
> 
> > Please accept that I am concerned that reasonable people who, none the
> > less, do not fully accept a certain political orthodoxy are uncertain
> > about where the lines are and find that chilling their willingness to
> > participate in Debian beyond narrow strictly technical discussions.
> 
> Yup, sometimes it's uncertain and uncomfortable.  That's because
> navigating social situations can be work.  It can require effort.  And
> yes, we all make mistakes (for instance, I just made one in going for
> pithy over fully explained, and made it seem like I was attacking you, for
> which I sincerely apologize).  And it's a process; you step on someone's
> foot or put your foot in your mouth, and then you adjust, and pick
> yourself up and dust yourself off and try again.
> 
> The part that I'm a little frustrated by is that I feel like you think
> people of a particular political belief are doing *more* work than others,
> and wow, that is not my experience at all.  The people who complain the
> most about "chilling effects" are, in my experience, the people who are
> doing the *least* amount of work in most conversations.
> 
> And that may still be a lot of work!  That may still be really hard for
> them!  I'm not saying this to say that they're doing very little work in
> some objective sense.
> 
> What I am saying is that they seem oblivious to the fact that the people
> on the other side of the discussion are *also* doing a *considerable*
> amount of work on how they communicate, and when, and what wording they
> use, and have been all along.  They're just not complaining about it,
> because they realize this is just the normal price of human social
> community.
> 
> > I find this notion that if anyone has any concern or confusion about if
> > their opinions are OK to express it's only because they are wrong very
> > troubling.
> 
> That's not what I'm saying at all, and I'm sorry that it came across that
> way.  Having concern and confusion about whether your opinions are okay to
> express is *also* part of being an adult.  This is a universal experience.

Thanks for clarifying.  I understand your perspective much better now and 
appreciate the apology.

For clarification from me, I don't expect a consequence free free-for-all 
where anything at all can be said with no repercussions.  There are absolutely 
things that are not acceptable, but on the other hand, I also don't think 
"someone was offended" is a reasonable standard (and I am not claiming that's 
what Debian is currently using - but there are places where things seem to me 
to be headed in that direction).

I am concerned about Debian becoming over-politicized (beyond the core issue 
of Free Software, which has an inherent political aspect).  I like that the 
diversity statement isn't anti-anything.

My personal challenges with engaging constructively don't derive from any 
particular political perspective.  They come more from having a strong temper 
over which my grasp is unfortunately not always adequate and being old enough 
that I worry about language shifting under me in ways I can't anticipate.

Scott K

Thread

Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-20 22:50 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2018-12-20 23:20 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2018-12-20 23:20 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-21 00:20 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 00:50 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-21 01:30 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 01:50 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2019-01-04 14:40 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-04 15:00 +0100
              Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 19:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 19:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 20:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 21:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 13:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au> - 2019-01-05 05:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 05:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-05 18:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-06 00:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 01:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-07 19:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-07 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> - 2019-01-10 00:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-10 01:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2019-01-10 06:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-10 15:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-10 21:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-10 22:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Matthew Vernon <matthew@debian.org> - 2019-01-10 23:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-11 12:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Matthew Vernon <matthewv@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-11 14:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-11 20:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-01-12 00:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-11 18:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-10 01:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-04 19:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 20:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-04 20:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 20:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-04 21:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 07:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-06 23:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-07 17:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-07 17:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian <flackjacket5@tutanota.com> - 2019-01-07 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-07 19:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 02:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 02:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-01-08 02:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 04:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 04:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-08 04:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 16:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 05:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 05:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 10:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 03:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 04:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 05:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 10:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 11:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 11:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Christian Kastner <ckk@kvr.at> - 2019-01-08 12:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-08 14:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 18:20 +0100
                [OT] distributions without systemd (was: Re: Censorship in Debian) Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-08 20:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] distributions without systemd Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 21:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-08 20:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 20:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2019-01-08 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2019-01-05 21:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-05 22:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 23:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 23:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 13:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-06 20:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2019-01-06 17:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martín Ferrari <tincho@tincho.org> - 2019-01-08 13:10 +0100
              Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 21:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 22:10 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-01-04 23:50 +0100
              Re: Censorship in Debian Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-01-05 02:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 02:30 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 08:10 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2018-12-21 11:30 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2018-12-21 01:50 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-21 09:40 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Chris Lamb <lamby@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 12:10 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Geert Stappers <stappers@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 19:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> - 2018-12-22 19:30 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 09:30 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2018-12-21 04:50 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 10:10 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2018-12-23 21:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Marcin Kulisz <debian@kulisz.net> - 2018-12-24 10:20 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-24 13:00 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 04:00 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2018-12-25 17:40 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 00:00 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 00:20 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2018-12-29 06:40 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> - 2018-12-29 09:30 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 09:40 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 09:50 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2018-12-26 14:40 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2018-12-28 07:50 +0100
        Re: Cyberbullying (was: Censorship) in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-29 00:30 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2018-12-26 15:50 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2018-12-26 16:00 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2018-12-26 17:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2018-12-27 03:40 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2018-12-27 17:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2018-12-27 14:50 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2018-12-28 08:50 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> - 2018-12-29 01:30 +0100

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