Re: Censorship in Debian

From	Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Censorship in Debian
Date	2019-01-04 20:00 +0100
Message-ID	<xcCRj-3LF-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<x7emB-2to-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <xcyaZ-Wp-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <xcCeB-3ym-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <xcCxY-3EP-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	The Eyrie

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Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:

> Nonsense unless you define being an adult as completely and fully
> understanding exactly what the hundreds of people around the world think
> is reasonable.

Anyone who has held down a job in a typical workplace has already shown
that they can understand what's reasonable and adjust to a social
environment well enough to do just fine in Debian.  (And yes, I realize
that's *also* a challenging environment for some folks, and in a lot of
cases we can be *more* welcoming than that, but I think it's being aware
of that baseline.)

> I suspect we agree on more than we disagree in this area, but I don't
> think "My way or the highway" is the right answer beyond a certain point
> in a worldwide project like this.

It's certainly not "my" way -- it's some sort of consensus emergent
standards among all of us, which changes in the complicated and intricate
ways of all human communities.  But every community has standards of
behavior and social consequences, whether formal or informal, for
violating them.  There exists no place on earth in which you can say
literally whatever you want with zero consequences, because humans are a
social species and we interact with each other and those communities
involve making judgments about who we include and don't.

> Please accept that I am concerned that reasonable people who, none the
> less, do not fully accept a certain political orthodoxy are uncertain
> about where the lines are and find that chilling their willingness to
> participate in Debian beyond narrow strictly technical discussions.

Yup, sometimes it's uncertain and uncomfortable.  That's because
navigating social situations can be work.  It can require effort.  And
yes, we all make mistakes (for instance, I just made one in going for
pithy over fully explained, and made it seem like I was attacking you, for
which I sincerely apologize).  And it's a process; you step on someone's
foot or put your foot in your mouth, and then you adjust, and pick
yourself up and dust yourself off and try again.

The part that I'm a little frustrated by is that I feel like you think
people of a particular political belief are doing *more* work than others,
and wow, that is not my experience at all.  The people who complain the
most about "chilling effects" are, in my experience, the people who are
doing the *least* amount of work in most conversations.

And that may still be a lot of work!  That may still be really hard for
them!  I'm not saying this to say that they're doing very little work in
some objective sense.

What I am saying is that they seem oblivious to the fact that the people
on the other side of the discussion are *also* doing a *considerable*
amount of work on how they communicate, and when, and what wording they
use, and have been all along.  They're just not complaining about it,
because they realize this is just the normal price of human social
community.

> I find this notion that if anyone has any concern or confusion about if
> their opinions are OK to express it's only because they are wrong very
> troubling.

That's not what I'm saying at all, and I'm sorry that it came across that
way.  Having concern and confusion about whether your opinions are okay to
express is *also* part of being an adult.  This is a universal experience.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Thread

Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-20 22:50 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2018-12-20 23:20 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2018-12-20 23:20 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-21 00:20 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 00:50 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-21 01:30 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 01:50 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2019-01-04 14:40 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-04 15:00 +0100
              Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 19:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 19:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 20:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 21:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 13:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au> - 2019-01-05 05:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 05:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-05 18:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-06 00:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 01:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-07 19:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-07 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> - 2019-01-10 00:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-10 01:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2019-01-10 06:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-10 15:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-10 21:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-10 22:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Matthew Vernon <matthew@debian.org> - 2019-01-10 23:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-11 12:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Matthew Vernon <matthewv@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-11 14:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-11 20:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-01-12 00:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-11 18:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-10 01:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-04 19:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 20:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-04 20:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 20:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-04 21:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 07:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-06 23:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-07 17:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-07 17:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian <flackjacket5@tutanota.com> - 2019-01-07 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-07 19:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 02:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 02:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-01-08 02:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 04:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 04:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-08 04:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 16:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 05:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 05:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 10:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 03:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 04:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 05:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 10:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 11:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 11:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Christian Kastner <ckk@kvr.at> - 2019-01-08 12:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-08 14:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 18:20 +0100
                [OT] distributions without systemd (was: Re: Censorship in Debian) Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-01-08 20:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] distributions without systemd Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-01-08 21:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-01-08 20:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-08 20:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2019-01-08 19:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2019-01-05 21:50 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-05 22:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 23:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 23:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-01-06 13:30 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-01-06 20:10 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2019-01-06 17:20 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Martín Ferrari <tincho@tincho.org> - 2019-01-08 13:10 +0100
              Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 21:40 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-04 22:10 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-01-04 23:50 +0100
              Re: Censorship in Debian Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-01-05 02:00 +0100
                Re: Censorship in Debian Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-01-05 02:30 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 08:10 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2018-12-21 11:30 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2018-12-21 01:50 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-21 09:40 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Chris Lamb <lamby@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 12:10 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Geert Stappers <stappers@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 19:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> - 2018-12-22 19:30 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 09:30 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2018-12-21 04:50 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 10:10 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2018-12-23 21:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Marcin Kulisz <debian@kulisz.net> - 2018-12-24 10:20 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-24 13:00 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2018-12-21 04:00 +0100
  Re: Censorship in Debian Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2018-12-25 17:40 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 00:00 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 00:20 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2018-12-29 06:40 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> - 2018-12-29 09:30 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 09:40 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2018-12-26 09:50 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2018-12-26 14:40 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2018-12-28 07:50 +0100
        Re: Cyberbullying (was: Censorship) in Debian Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2018-12-29 00:30 +0100
    Re: Censorship in Debian Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2018-12-26 15:50 +0100
      Re: Censorship in Debian Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2018-12-26 16:00 +0100
        Re: Censorship in Debian "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2018-12-26 17:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2018-12-27 03:40 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2018-12-27 17:00 +0100
          Re: Censorship in Debian Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2018-12-27 14:50 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2018-12-28 08:50 +0100
            Re: Censorship in Debian martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> - 2018-12-29 01:30 +0100

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