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Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

From Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Re: mailing list vs "the futur"
Date 2018-08-28 16:30 +0200
Message-ID <wrNah-47Z-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <wrsyR-o9-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <wrw9s-2yo-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <wrHoe-MO-11@gated-at.bofh.it> <wrKFr-2zU-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <wrLUS-3ta-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization linux.* mail to news gateway

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On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 02:03:05PM +0100, Mark Rousell wrote:
>Isn't this true of, say, HTTP too?

Not in the same way, because you have a sender and a receiver, without 
the potentially infinite number of other machines that might be getting 
a copy of the content just in case someone might want it someday.

>As with your other comments about Usenet, this is not an issue for a
>non-publicly federated system. I.e. The problem that affected Usenet (the
>ultimate in publicly federated systems) in this context does not affect NNTP in
>general for discussion group usage.

Sure. But in that context, there's not really much benefit to NNTP 
either. It's just a dumb transport protocol with fewer deployed clients 
than HTTP.

>Remember that we're having this discussion over email. As you observed above,
>SMTP-based email suffers from a spam problem due to this very issue. And yet
>this discussion list works. If this list was a NNTP-based discussion group, it
>would be even more bandwidth-efficient

How? Let's just drop the discussion about how horrible usenet was and 
focus on what the potential benefits of NNTP are. I can't think of many 
(definitely none significant) over SMTP, and none at all over a well 
implemented modern web based discussion with a cacheable REST interface.

>    But certainly you can identify or deal with an abusive customer on HTTP
>    much easier than you can identify and remediate abuse within the noise of
>    an NNTP feed.
>
>
>This is the issue with what I called "moderator-ability" above.
>
>What "noise of an NNTP feed"? A NNTP feed need have no more "noise" than this
>mail list does. Once again you seem to be conflating NNTP (used in the context
>of a discussion group like this one or a group of such discussion groups) with
>the massive volume of Usenet.

Well, you also seem to like to jump back and forth in talking about one 
or the other, without actually offering any specifics. :) You
brush off the problems of (the only) large scale NNTP implementation by 
offering a closed environment with close to zero users as a counterexample. 
But I'm happy to stop talking about usenet...except that you bring it up 
again:

>I suspect you might criticise my description of Usenet (or NNTP) as a "one
>known user to [...]" system but the sender of a Usenet message was known to
>exactly the same extent as a SMTP email sender. In the timeframe under
>discussion, both Usenet and SMTP email carry the same requirement (or lack
>thereof) for authentication. There was no difference (either in practice or
>theory) whatsoever.

There was, in that you could use a throwaway account to broadcast a 
message to a large number of effectively anonymous but long-term users. 
In the SMTP context it's really hard to have throwaway accounts send to 
other throwaway accounts, allow the content to be durable, and be 
discoverable. The closest analogy was shared mail accounts used as 
dropboxes, but the clients of those were easily tracked once the account 
was identified.

>NNTP is ideally suited to sharing messages in a client/server
>fashion. As I have observed, it is more efficient in this regard (in terms of
>bandwidth-efficiency as well as management efficiency) than email lists and it
>is at least as efficient in these terms (and likely more bandwidth-efficient)
>than web forums.

You've asserted it many times, but you haven't actually shown with 
numbers how it's more efficient in practice to any degree that matters 
in the real world. When sending via SMTP you consolidate messages per 
ISP/mail domain, and the backend mail server can deduplicate (or avoid 
duplicating) the incoming messages if that's an administrative priority. 
In practice, the volume of something like the debian lists is so low 
compared to the volume of background spam it doesn't even really matter. 
If reading via REST in a caching HTTP environment it's even more 
efficient since you won't retrieve even a single copy of a message 
unless it's requested. In practice there's not much caching these days 
for a variety of reasons but again, compared to the overall volume of 
web traffic the load of debian discussion groups is too small to matter.

>I am surprised to see you say that NNTP is "too complicated". In the medium
>term future I'll have to implement a NNTP server and, having looked at the
>RFCs, it doesn't look too bad. Have you experience of implementing NNTP?

Make sure that your NNTP implementation is interoperable with your web 
forum, because if it doesn't it's a dead end. (And duplicative--we 
already have a lot of unused NNTP server code.) It's not that NNTP is 
necessarily complicated in itself, it's that making it interoperate with the 
expectations of a modern web forum is hard--potentially impossible 
without proprietary extensions, at which point you've thrown away the 
entire point of sticking with NNTP instead of using something else. The 
conceptual split between transit and reading functionality is a lot of 
legacy to carry forward if you're basically trying to create a reader 
interface for smart clients. Enough to make it debatable whether it's 
worth trying to implement all that vs exposing a REST API.

>As for "lacking in functionality", it all depends on what you expect it to
>provide. As a way of getting messages from place to place, it seems ideal. As a
>way of providing other features, it depends. I would not, for example, expect
>NNTP on its own to provide a moderation UI or avatars.

And yet, those things have made web forums the de facto replacement for 
NNTP. As much as greybeards don't understand why the like button 
matters, it's really hard to convince actual users these days that the 
reason you don't have one is that they don't need it and you know better 
than they do. There are a lot of other usability issues that basically 
boil down to the change in user behavior from using a smart client at 
one location (possibly telnetting/sshing into there from elsewhere) to 
using a variety of dumb clients to access centralized resources. 
Protocols that transfer dumb messages but allow a lot of endpoint 
customization are great in the smart client model but tend to not have a 
good user experience in the dumb client model. (And vice versa--if you 
have the ability to highly customize a specific workstation, it's 
frustrating to not be able to.) Given demographic and technological 
trends, ignoring the dumb client paradigm is short sighted at best.

>Note also that the front end user experience is not necessarily directly
>dependent on the transport protocol. For example, it is entirely feasible for a
>front end that looks and works much like Tapatalk or like the mobile web
>versions of popular web forums to communicate with its back end via NNTP, or to
>communicate with different back ends using a range of protocols (e.g. NNTP,
>email, REST, and so on).

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Yes, it's 
theoretically possible. But for a variety of real-world reasons, large 
scale NNTP-accessible web forums haven't succeeded. (If you look, you can 
find a lot of attempts that never really gained much traction.) It was 
more practical in the tapatalk case to invent a new protocol than to use 
NNTP. I'd suggest that it's worth understanding why rather than just 
insisting that everybody is wrong and NNTP is the answer that they just 
haven't figured out.

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Thread

mailing list vs "the futur" tech <tech@rkn.ovh> - 2018-08-09 19:40 +0200
  Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-08-09 19:50 +0200
    RE: mailing list vs "the futur" tech <tech@rkn.ovh> - 2018-08-09 20:10 +0200
      RE: mailing list vs "the futur" tech <tech@rkn.ovh> - 2018-08-09 20:20 +0200
        RE: mailing list vs "the futur" deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 01:30 +0200
      Re: mailing list vs "the futur" David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-08-10 03:10 +0200
      Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-08-10 12:30 +0200
        Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> - 2018-08-10 13:30 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-08-10 14:00 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-10 14:00 +0200
            Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2018-08-10 14:40 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-10 15:00 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-10 15:10 +0200
            Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> - 2018-08-10 14:50 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2018-08-10 15:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-08-10 16:20 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2018-08-10 15:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" cyaiplexys <cyaiplexys@sitesplace.net> - 2018-08-10 18:00 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2018-08-10 15:20 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-10 15:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" "Michelle Konzack" <linux4michelle@tamay-dogan.net> - 2018-08-11 11:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-12 14:30 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-10 15:30 +0200
            Re: mailing list vs "the futur" "Michelle Konzack" <linux4michelle@tamay-dogan.net> - 2018-08-11 10:40 +0200
            Re: Re: mailing list vs "the futur" dekkzz78@gmail.com - 2018-08-11 11:10 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-08-12 15:50 +0200
        Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-10 13:50 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-08-10 16:20 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-08-23 22:10 +0200
            Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-08-23 22:30 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2018-09-05 03:50 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2018-08-09 21:30 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-10 12:30 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-08-23 21:30 +0200
      Re: mailing list vs "the futur" "Martin McCormick" <martin.m@suddenlink.net> - 2018-08-23 23:00 +0200
      Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Piotr Martyniuk <zaxonxp45@gmail.com> - 2018-08-24 08:10 +0200
        Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-08-24 08:30 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Piotr Martyniuk <zaxonxp45@gmail.com> - 2018-08-24 09:00 +0200
            Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-08-24 11:50 +0200
        Re: mailing list vs "the futur" "Michelle Konzack" <linux4michelle@tamay-dogan.net> - 2018-08-24 21:00 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-08-24 21:20 +0200
            Re: mailing list vs "the futur" The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2018-08-24 22:40 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-24 23:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-08-25 01:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-25 02:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-08-25 21:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-25 21:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-08-27 17:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-27 17:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-08-27 18:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-27 22:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-08-27 22:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 10:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-28 13:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 15:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-28 15:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-28 16:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-28 20:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-28 16:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-28 16:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-28 16:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-28 17:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 17:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-28 21:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-29 00:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-29 01:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-29 03:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-29 03:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-29 09:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-29 17:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-08-29 17:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-29 18:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-29 19:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-08-29 19:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-30 12:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-08-30 14:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-30 15:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-08-30 21:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-31 12:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2018-09-04 12:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-09-04 14:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-04 15:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-09-04 17:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-04 18:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-09-04 18:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-04 19:50 +0200
                [Off-topic] Was: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-09-04 20:20 +0200
                Re: [Off-topic] Was: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-04 20:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2018-09-05 03:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-05 04:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-09-05 09:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-09-04 20:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-04 20:30 +0200
                [Off-topic] Was: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-09-04 20:50 +0200
                Re: [Off-topic] Was: mailing list vs "the futur" Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2018-09-04 21:20 +0200
                Re: [Off-topic] Was: mailing list vs "the futur" Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2018-09-04 21:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2018-09-04 17:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-04 15:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-04 16:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-09-01 12:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-09-01 12:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-29 18:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-08-29 19:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-08-29 02:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-29 09:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-29 12:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-29 12:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-29 12:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-29 12:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-29 12:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-29 13:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-29 14:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-29 14:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-29 15:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-29 17:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-29 18:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-29 21:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-30 12:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-30 14:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-29 17:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-29 21:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-30 00:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-08-30 01:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Bob Bernstein <poobah@ruptured-duck.com> - 2018-09-01 20:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-01 22:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Bob Bernstein <poobah@ruptured-duck.com> - 2018-09-01 23:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-09-02 10:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-09-02 15:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-02 15:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-09-02 16:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2018-09-02 16:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2018-09-02 17:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-09-02 18:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-09-02 17:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-02 18:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-02 18:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Bob Bernstein <poobah@ruptured-duck.com> - 2018-09-03 07:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-09-03 08:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2018-09-03 07:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-09-03 13:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2018-09-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-09-03 16:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-09-03 13:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-29 12:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2018-08-29 12:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-09-01 11:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-01 16:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-29 13:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-29 13:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-29 13:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-08-29 14:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-29 14:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-08-29 14:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-29 14:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-29 14:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-29 14:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-08-29 14:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-08-29 14:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-29 15:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-29 14:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-29 14:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-28 14:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-28 01:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-28 09:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-28 13:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 14:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-28 15:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 16:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-28 16:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 18:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 18:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-28 19:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-08-28 20:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 20:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 20:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 20:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-28 22:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 18:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-28 19:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-08-28 20:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 16:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-28 10:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-08-27 19:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-28 01:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-28 05:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-08-25 12:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-25 14:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-08-25 15:30 +0200
      Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> - 2018-08-24 15:30 +0200
        Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-24 18:20 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-08-24 18:40 +0200
            Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2018-08-24 19:20 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-08-24 19:50 +0200
              Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2018-08-24 19:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2018-08-24 20:10 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-08-24 20:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-08-24 20:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-08-25 01:40 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2018-08-27 10:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-08-27 13:50 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-27 14:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-27 16:00 +0200
                Re: Re: mailing list vs "the futur" dekkzz78@gmail.com - 2018-08-27 16:20 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-08-27 17:30 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2018-08-25 10:00 +0200
                Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Ben Caradoc-Davies <ben@transient.nz> - 2018-08-25 02:50 +0200
  Re: mailing list is the future (corrected spelling mistakes) Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2018-08-09 20:10 +0200
  Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 21:10 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-08-12 16:00 +0200
  Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2018-08-09 22:20 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" "Michelle Konzack" <linux4michelle@tamay-dogan.net> - 2018-08-11 11:10 +0200
      Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-08-12 16:10 +0200
  Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> - 2018-08-10 01:40 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-11 00:00 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2018-08-11 11:50 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-08-12 16:20 +0200
      Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-08-12 20:10 +0200
        Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-13 12:30 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-08-13 16:00 +0200
      Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-08-13 12:30 +0200
  Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2018-08-10 10:30 +0200
  Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-08-10 12:00 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Shea Alterio <krusete@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 18:50 +0200
  Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-10 12:50 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2018-08-11 14:30 +0200
      Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-11 15:30 +0200
        Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-08-13 15:30 +0200
          Re: mailing list vs "the futur" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-08-13 16:00 +0200
            Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-08-13 16:20 +0200
  Re: mailing list vs "the futur" Mark Rousell <mark.rousell@signal100.com> - 2018-08-11 00:00 +0200
    Re: mailing list vs "the futur" arne <sp113438@telfort.nl> - 2018-08-11 00:50 +0200
  Re: mailing list vs "the futur" dekkzz78@gmail.com - 2018-08-11 11:00 +0200

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